People who are in favour of grammar schools....

[BertrandRussell]

....what is your proposal for the majority who are not selected?

It is impossible to form an argument in favour of grammar schools unless you start from the position that high ability children need/deserve special treatment that others don't need/deserve.

It is impossible to form an argument in favour of grammar schools unless you start from the position that high ability children need/deserve special treatment that others don't need/deserve.

What about the knock-on effects of a reward/penalty system where children are promoted/demoted between the grammars and 2nd mods? I have no idea why this should remain fixed and I don't see much about this on these threads.

After all, the streams in comprehensives are to remain fluid.

Previous attendance at a private prep?

Raise the pass mark. This is what admissions officers are doing mentally, anyway. We know that on average between two students performing at level X, one privately the other state, the state educated person will be smarter.

Bertrand I don't wish to name my school and have every right not to, but it gives travel assistance right through the school and has an extensive bursary system. It isn't alone, far from it.

Your'e quite lazy, always asking for 'links'. You could easily seek out information yourself, without pressing people to name their own school.

Bertrand how do you view 'elite' universities? Are they unfair too? Is their system of selection unfair? Should everyone automatically go to their local uni regardless of academic ability? At what age is it ok to differentiate between different talents?

"It's a very, very poor approach to say that grammars needn't be equally funded with non selective schools because the middle class parents will contribute! Kind of missing the point or what! All schools should be equally funded, except special schools."

Maybe my idea was not well worded. What I mean was the basic money every student gets will be the same, but after calculating the SEN support, the pupil premium etc non selective will be quite likely to get more as a school. Expensive extras to make grammar more like privates should partly be coming from initiatives from each grammar school itself, from fundraising from families and alumni to getting sponsors from businesses. Any fairer?

What about the knock-on effects of a reward/penalty system where children are promoted/demoted between the grammars and 2nd mods?

Imagine the howls of protest from middle class parents if their child's place at a Grammar isn't secure. Mind you, I would happily see a bright but lazy kid who can't be bothered to take advantage of the opportunities offered demoted for a conscientious but less academic child. Not at 11 mind - more at 14.

Yes that's quite different alwayssurprised. But I'm not quite clear why grammars should get 'expensive extras to make them more like privates'. Anyhow, the important thing is a national funding formula so that all mainstream schools, wherever they are geographically, get the same basic spend per pupil.

"Imagine the howls of protest from middle class parents if their child's place at a Grammar isn't secure. Mind you, I would happily see a bright but lazy kid who can't be bothered to take advantage of the opportunities offered demoted"

Or the 14 year old suffering from a mental health problem which is impacting on their behaviour and attainment.

I don't agree with endless opportunities for movement mini but to be fair to schools, I'm not sure why you think the grammar system wouldn't deal supportively with a child with mental health problems.

In fact I'd go further than that and say that the grammars are very alert to mental health issues but CAMHS consistently allege that academic pressure is causing issues when the issues are wholly separate and then wreck young people's lives in the process rather than keeping their education afloat while the other problems are sorted. But that's another thread. I'd see CAMHS as the issue though, not the schools.

"Bertrand I don't wish to name my school and have every right not to, but it gives travel assistance right through the school and has an extensive bursary system. It isn't alone, far from it."

Well if it isn't alone- why not name one of the ones that isn't your school?

And what sort of bursaries does a grammar school offer?

But anyway, this is all beside the point. Before anyone can access the free transport and the bursaries they have to take and pass the 11+.

Apologies for so many issues in the last post!

It pays towards transport costs and a large variety of other things such as school trips, uniform, music lessons etc. I suggest you look around all the school websites yourself since you seem to have so much time on your hands!

And while we are at it lets bring this back as well !

I am all for traditional education...

corpun.com/uksc7611.htm

Only JOKING...

corpun.com/uksc7611.htm

I can only think of one explanation for your reluctance to share this good news.........

WWW. corpun.com/uksc7611.htm

The classroom terror

Head cleared as caned girl sobs in court

By James Golden

THE reign of Lynne Simmonds as a classroom terror ended when she was caned by the headmistress, a court heard yesterday.

Lynne Simmonds
LYNNE SIMMONDS

Miss Janet Dines
MISS JANET DINES
Lynne, who had a history of bad behaviour, was sent to Miss Janet Dines for eating crisps during a maths lesson.

But the three whacks given to 14-year-old Lynne on her bottom landed Miss Dines, head of Northwich Girls' Grammar School, Cheshire, in court.

Lynne's parents brought a private assault and beating charge. They claimed that Lynne was punished unreasonably.

But after Lynne broke down weeping as she told of her classroom antics, the case was withdrawn and Northwich magistrates dismissed the charge against the middle-aged headmistress.

Lynne, who passed her 11 plus to go to the school, admitted a catalogue of misbehaviour when cross-examined by Mr. John Hoggett, counsel for Miss Dines.

She said she told rude jokes in the scripture lessons while discussing moral and ethical questions.

She made remarks about teachers behind their backs and blew raspberries at them.

She told lies about having lost homework which she had not done and took a classmate's book without permission.

She stole a teacher's pen off her desk and offered it to a friend for a pound, and she disrupted the class.

Lynne was suspended for half a day by Miss Dines for the pen incident and her father gave her the strap.

She also admitted handing in a school project done by another girl, claiming it was hers.

But the girl in hospital and temporarily blind returned and Lynne was found out.

Then she was caught eating in a lesson and was sent to Miss Dines. The headmistress entered the punishment in the official book and told her she would be writing to her parents.

Lynne said that after the caning her bottom was sore for several weeks and she had been unable to sleep properly.

Mr Peter Hughes, prosecuting, said that a memo from Cheshire Education Committee laid down "If corporal punishment is used, it should only be a last resort and must only be used where it fits the offence."

He claimed Miss Dines acted unreasonably in view of the red weals the caning left.

When Lynne broke down there was an adjournment and Mr Hughes asked for the case to be withdrawn.

Mr Hoggett said: "This case has been hanging over my client, a responsible headmistress of this town, for a long time.

"There has been adverse publicity. It has been a time of great tension and distress. She is entitled to regard this as a complete vindication."

A spokesman for the Parent Governors said they would be discussing the case.

As he left with his still weeping daughter, who now goes to another school, Harry Simmonds, a dairy supervisor, of Sidney Street, Greenbank, Northwich, said: "No more comments. She has had enough."

One explanation might be limited time to trawl websites which you can do yourself. Why on earth should I do it for you! So lazy! Birmingham has been in regular news articles but you had to be led right to it. Show some initiative Bert! All you do is moan.

goodbyestranger Grammars should not by default get expensive extras e.g better extra curricular provisions, more academic field trips, better facilities etc, but those are quite often what the parents desire, and helps to make state education competitive at the top tier. What I am saying us allowing selective grammar school to be formed doesn't mean the government will be responsible for all these, but the school should be allow to fundraise for them.

Oh, come on. You said lots of grammar schools offer free transport and bursaries. So name one. Not difficult. Off the top of your head. You were the one that made the claim- it's not up to me to trawl through 168 school websites - it's for you to back up your assertion.

But anyway, it doesn't matter- the point is that poor and/or disadvantaged children don't pass the 11+ even if they sit it. So never get to partake of the schools' munificence.

Bertrand it's not for me to do anything whatsoever. I'm stating a fact just as I did about access in relation to the exams, which you subsequently conceded (and minimized). I've got better things to do with my time than run around websites indulging you. Your'e the one bleating, so you waste your own time not mine.