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Original poster

Plan for 18 year olds to become teachers with on the job training

289 replies

noblegiraffe · 20/08/2016 12:26

So the government's bright idea to solve teacher shortages is not to make any effort to retain the teachers who are leaving in droves, but to allow people to train as teachers on the job with only A-levels.

Because acquiring a solid expertise in your subject first is totally overrated.

www.tes.com/news/school-news/breaking-news/exclusive-first-teaching-apprenticeship-planned

OP posts:
FruitCider · 22/08/2016 20:58

Mrz I wasn't referring to schema therapy, I was referring to piagets work on schemas. That theory is used a lot in CAMHS/PD services. I also have a personal interest in evolutionary and cognitive psychology.

I was trying to say that the standard of education needed for a teacher should be related to the educational needs of their class. So whilst needing a good undergraduate degree in history would be needed for teaching GCSE/a level history, I'm not so sure it is necessary for KS1.

rollonthesummer · 22/08/2016 21:00

Of course the act of teaching is practical, it's something you do! The act of nursing is practical, however academia is needed for that

Are you suggesting academia is needed for nursing but not teaching?

Letseatgrandma · 22/08/2016 21:06

The assumption by some people that you don't need a certain level of intelligence to be able to understand how little children learn, always amazes me.

'Oh yes, of course you need a history degree to teach secondary children history, but any old muppet can teach 5-7 year olds' is the strong implication.

So, should ks3+ teachers need a degree with good pay but EYFS, ks1 and 2 teachers just need people with a couple of A levels?

Original poster
noblegiraffe · 22/08/2016 21:12

I do wonder whether some people see teaching as delivering a PowerPoint presentation. That if you watch a bunch of people delivering a PowerPoint, then have a go at delivering the PowerPoint yourself, you'll be able to teach.

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FruitCider · 22/08/2016 21:13

rollonthesummer don't be so silly, I was giving nursing as another example of a profession that is practical and also needs a good level of education relevant to the task in hand, as well as teaching.

When I went to school, my teachers used to do practical work too. Has this changed?

Original poster
noblegiraffe · 22/08/2016 21:13

If an apprenticeship route can offer the same level of academia

But how? I spent 4 years full time at uni learning maths from some people who were very good at maths. How can that be fitted in 'on the job'?

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FruitCider · 22/08/2016 21:14

Noblegiraffe, no idea, I'm interested to see how it pans out in nursing but think it may be a good option.

YorkieDorkie · 22/08/2016 21:28

Fruitcider I'm shocked at your naivety regarding teaching.

You're saying that in order to teach 5 year olds, the teacher doesn't need a degree level education or further? That's wildly patronising and basically saying that all we do is teach children the alphabet and their numbers and anyone could clearly do it.

Higher education is essential to understand the way children work, learn, process, progress just to scratch the surface! The "filling of empty vessels" vision of teaching children is precisely why many people have a lack of respect for the profession.

In the same way I could say your job is just sticking people full of tranquillisers. It's offensive.

FruitCider · 22/08/2016 21:40

That is what the masters or ITT is for, to learn how to teach.

To be honest, I give up. This is turning into a vicious thread, with teachers berating everyone not in the profession for having an opinion.

FWIW I asked my SIL (assistant head) about this topic this afternoon and she is all for apprenticeships!

Anyway, I'm out.

mrz · 22/08/2016 21:42

Not Schmidt's schema theory ?

YorkieDorkie · 22/08/2016 21:43

Shocker. Upper management is keen to hire cheap staff!

HerdsOfWilderbeest · 22/08/2016 21:43

It won't work. Troops to Teachers was the last similar hare-brained idea.

£4.3 million was pumped into it. Do you know how many are now in the classroom? 28. Twenty-eight.

That's £153,000 each.

The rest obviously thought a career risking their lives was more attractive than teaching.

HerdsOfWilderbeest · 22/08/2016 21:44

Bye bye, FruitCider.

YorkieDorkie · 22/08/2016 21:44

Oh my god herds Shock

clam · 22/08/2016 21:49

That is what the masters or ITT is for, to learn how to teach.

Eh???

Anyway, thank God she's gone.

YorkieDorkie · 22/08/2016 21:50

It was never going to end well.

Original poster
noblegiraffe · 22/08/2016 21:51

What's the apprenticeship for then, if not to learn how to teach? Confused

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elephantoverthehill · 22/08/2016 22:05

Oh dear, I have been catching up on this thread today. It was me who suggested about Teachers needing 'life skills'. I am one of those teachers who did A'levels, degree and then teaching. I have however worked on a building site, worked in catering, been a cellar manager, worked in a factory, run a call centre and run a small business. Why? Because grants were not enough and a starting salary as a teacher was not enough, but the experiences of doing those jobs has far more impact on the students I have taught and their aspirations and my ability to try and give some guidance.

YorkieDorkie · 22/08/2016 22:45

For me it's more the continued ignorance from the government to deal with the national retention crisis. Instead, they lower the bar to getting people into the profession instead of doing something about keeping the teachers that are about to leave.

What happens when the apprentice teachers start leaving the profession?

You'll be able to get your QTS at 6th form college Hmm. It's a slippery slope.

HerdsOfWilderbeest · 22/08/2016 23:10

I agree Yorkie.

Interesting:

DfE figures show that in the 12 months to November 2015 (the most recent year for which statistics are available) over 50,000 qualified teachers in England left the state sector. This equates to one in 10 teachers leaving the profession and is the highest number of teachers leaving in the last decade. The number of teachers leaving as a proportion of the total number of teachers in service, known as the ‘wastage rate’, is 10.6 per cent.4 The same figures reveal that more than 100,000 potential teachers have never taught, despite finishing their training.

BoneyBackJefferson · 22/08/2016 23:29

FruitCider

This is turning into a vicious thread, with teachers berating everyone not in the profession for having an opinion.

I love this response, because its "vicious" to point out the flaw in someones argument and somehow posting an opinion is not allowing someone to have an opinion.

The great shame is that it is this attitude that is passed on to so many of the pupils in schools.

mathsmum314 · 22/08/2016 23:44

What about devolving the decision to individual schools. If a school decided to have an apprentice and it worked, then great. If it didn't work and results suffered than parents would hold the head to account , boycott the school and boom ...

Original poster
noblegiraffe · 22/08/2016 23:45

It does show a basic lack of understanding of how complex teaching is.

I'm reminded of the dressage in the Olympics. You get loads of people saying 'they're just sitting on a dancing horse, I could do that' when actually you can't see the masses of work that has gone on behind the scenes, and the fact that the rider is performing 101 nearly imperceptible motions to make the horse dance.

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Original poster
noblegiraffe · 22/08/2016 23:51

parents would hold the head to account

Parents generally have no idea who is teaching their kid in secondary.

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mathsmum314 · 23/08/2016 00:03

Agreed, but if results decline then parents are straight on top the school causing havoc!

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