Grammar Schools (given green light by Theresa May part 3)

[sandyholme]

Part 3 ... Let the sparring continue..

There is a whole grade difference a good comp and a good grammar.

But there may well be a whole level+ difference between the grammar kids and the comp kids at KS2. The only criteria for high ability in the league tables is achieving above a level 4 in the SATs. That could be a low level 5, or it could be sitting maths GCSE in Y5, yet they'll both count as the same ability in the stats.

Perhaps it's also worth saying, in an attempt to assuage the hand wringing sorority, that I can't think of a single child in DD3's cohort who didn't pass the 11+, who was at the time or is now a complete emotional wreck on the back of it. Sorry Bertrand.

I'm sorry, I can't get through to your links at the moment, so I hesitate to comment if I am working under false assumptions! I do instinctively agree with pear. It fits with what I see unfolding around me in North London.

Slightly anecdotal but was not John Prescott a famous example of not passing the 11+ but gained a place with a voice in later years.

As you were......... I realise it does not contribute to the discussion.

Thinking about it, the term "super rich" is pointless in this discussion. It's too subjective.

For me the important distinction is between families who live off their paycheques and families with quite a lot of capital.

In London, you see a lot of people in houses that they could never pay for themselves out of their salary, with children they going to schools that they also cannot possibly afford out of their salaries. Clearly, having enough capital in your family that you can choose a career you love without regard to whether it pays much; being able to chose a course of study that you enjoy without concern about whether it leads to bankable job prospects; being able to take risks to set up a business without worrying that it could bankrupt you; and being able to potentially choose any school you like for your children without wondering how you will afford it are privleges that the vast majority of the population can only dream of.

It's true that a family with an income of £60k/year is hardly on the breadline. But I think they could really use the help of grammar schools if they have academic children. And I cannot see why the education system shouldn't serve them.

Btw, I cannot think of a single private day school in London or the Home Counties that is not more than £15k/year. Yes, I know there are private schools beyond the Home Counties, but an awful large percentage of the population lives in the southeast, and an even greater percentage of private day schools are here.

CaspiansLucidMoment anything which distracts the discussion from the wretched plight of the capital poor comfortably off contributes to it.

Elly can I just say I don't think the families you describe are the targets for the current initiatives....

For the record i define a 'Rich' family by having either an income of £500K PA or £5 million in assets !

The super rich is another classification totally !.

However, this thread as Elly points out is concerned about those with more modest earnings or capital assets.

I also find it quite 'doubtful ' that a family income of around £60k PA allows for a family to pay private school fees of circa 15k PA.

The only realistic way this is possible is if said family have very low 'mortgage' or family help (this links to Elly comments about capital or access to it).

Lets not get carried away a £60k family income is two adults on 30k PA (the national average wage is £27K PA) is in no way a high income.

www.telegraph.co.uk/education/2016/08/17/father-sues-28k-a-year-boarding-school-after-son-passes-just-one/

I really should not laugh ! However after outlaying £125 k over 5 years for your son to come out with 1 GCSE grade C in Science is extraordinary .

Lots of families live on that average wage without remotely being on the breadline. And if they can't then they have a very easy solution which is learn to budget. So if any of the poor deprived 60k families want private level education, they have 33k they can use to pay. If they don't want that, it's their problem.

Frankly, I'm more concerned by what is provided for those dc who don't have that choice

I agree they are not targets for this goodbyestranger.

I think this policy is testing the waters and the thin end of the wedge.

If it gets going, my £60k/year family is likely to feel just as deserving. And, I would agree with them.

I live in city with no grammars.

When DC went to secondary: rich friends were 'selected' for private. Other friends were selected for religious school (with free bus/train passes), despite parents faking it. Two next door neighbor friends were selected for the best school in city, it was just coincidence their parents had chosen that time to move to millionaires row (they could only afford the mortgage for a few years before they moved away). Believe it or not a few friends actively choose the shite school because parent(s) didn't want to be hassled about homework. One neighbor got selected for a football academy school. We got selected for a 'good' comprehensive because of my sharp elbowed appeal.

Essentially I had no choice.

My DC is in a 1400 pupil 'good' comprehensive, set in the top class of 8 core academic subjects for everything and essentially learning nothing because there are only 6 other kids at the same level. The school cant do anything despite me asking, repeatedly (see other posts).

Why is it wrong to have a school that selects for at least minimum one class of gifted pupils, so that its possible to provide an education that allows bright children to progress at the rate they are capable of? Do we not want to have a, Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Mark Zuckerberg or Elon Musk in this country?

I can't get a million pound mortgage, afford private or degrade myself enough to pray in the pews. In primary I was told "wait until secondary they will have more advanced stuff there". In secondary I was told, "dont worry university will challenge them". Maybe it will but what a waste of 14 years of state schooling!

The only answer is some new partially selective schools.

Does anyone else have a better solution, other than the fantasy of "lets make all schools better"?

I just want to bring some rather interesting information about an 11+ failure who is representing Great Britain tomorrow in the 'poshest' of events 'The Modern Pentathlon.

Samantha Murray she got the last UK medal 2012 (Silver)

She went to the 'Bowland High' in Clitheroe Classed as a 'Modern' in Dept of ED stats though it must be one of those ''selective moderns' with 73% GCSE and 3.3% FSM the headline figures !

Two articles of interest from the TES:

://www.tes.com/news/school-news/breaking-news/only-38-cent-public-back-new-grammar-schools-yougov-poll-reveals

://www.tes.com/news/school-news/breaking-news/dont-bring-back-grammar-schools-says-headteacher-theresa-mays-alma

My ds to attend comprehensive in disadvantaged area, with high proportion of children on FSM. Chose against school just a bit further away that had different demographic and seen as a bit of a golden ticket school.
Now golden ticket school is oversubscribed as seen as grammar school in everything but name. School I have chosen undersubscribed [but numbers growing] and determined to do best by all children, whatever ability [my child is able so hope that is true!]. Ethos of this school would not be pro grammar I would predict. However, an area more in fitting to Mrs Mays ideas than other area/ other school.
School my ds going to want to educate children of all abilities- including the very able that tend to select the other school. A grammar school in the area would be damaging and unjustifable considering good, aspirational school in area aiming to do good by all. It is not aiming to be a secondary modern only and why should it be pushed to be one?

So if any of the poor deprived 60k families want private level education, they have 33k they can use to pay. If they don't want that, it's their problem.

So you are an advocate of people paying for private school but against grammars? Jesus. Wept.

Have you heard of taxation, mortgages, train tickets, childcare, food, energy bills, household maintenance, clothing, just off the top of my head? Please tell me whether you are a bored child on school holidays who has no experience of running a family home, or just really crap at maths? Unbelieveable.

That's amazing, goodbyestranger. Well done to her!

I really find it hard to believe that families on that salary can find an extra £1300 per child per month for private fees.

There are quite a lot of only children from families earning 60k-80k (based on two salaries) at my DC's school. In several cases the families chose to have only one child so that they could afford private education. Having only one child also means that you only need a 2 bedroom home. BTW these families also had the option of a grammar (their children got in) but chose the private instead. I don't think I would do the same in their position but it's up to them.

elly I don't think dc like yours should have a worse education. However I don't agree they should receive a better education than everyone else, which is what generally happens whether it's academic selection in a grammar area or social selection in a fully comp area.

maple if you've rtft, or care to search my past posts, you'd have realised that between grammars and the current comprehensive system, I'm in favour of grammars. Because at least able dc from less affluent homes get a chance. And it's fair to say I've posted numerous times on the often inadequate provision for able dc in the state system.

As for your comments on budgeting, hilarious. I had dd barely out of my teens, as a lone parent, and live in an area many mumsnetters would run screaming from. And state wse have f.a choice, despite having a child who would get into any state grammar. So she's at independent, and whilst I am not paying fees now, by the time I get anywhere near 60k they'd expect me to. And I'm not even there for the usual advantages. I'm there because living round here, it's the only way my highly able dd will get an education in line with her ability. I'd welcome more grammars at present, but only for the academic provision, not to provide free privates.