Grammar Schools (given green light by Theresa May part 3)

[sandyholme]

Part 3 ... Let the sparring continue..

Sandy- please stop trying to be funny.

As I often say on this subject, the key target for schools should be getting kids headed for Ds to Cs. That does not mean a C target for everyone- whatever the Comprehensive bashers would have us believe.

But in terms of opening doors and life opportunities, there is no more important grade boundary than the one between D and C.

Thankyou hpfa very interesting and definitely mirrors my opinion.

bert but that's because your ds has presumably grown up with education and aspiration as a normal part of life. If he expressed a real interest in say classics, or further maths, or his mfl teacher is replaced by none specialist supply, then I'm sure that while you'd expect him to put in the effort, you'd buy the materials, even if that's just paying for wifi, and have an atmosphere he could study them if he chooses. If you'd brought him up to believe aldi has the best jobs, and are amazed he can do that complicated maths (basic algebra), and don't have the money or skills to point him in the right direction, that whole 'do it himself' becomes a very different challenge. Ditto if you were the same person as now, but your ds was your carer, or any other circumstances where it isn't so straight forward. Using that logic the 11+ is ok because those able disadvantaged kids can just prepare themselves and we both know it doesn't work that way.

Is it just me? As if though some people believe that we should segregate all the children into two separate herds then programme each herd into different future purposes before the children even have enough education to think for themselves.

Yeah, my local comp is obsessed by getting kids over the c barrier at the expense of everything else. It works out fantastically for all those dc who achieve c's, without useful numeracy/ literacy skills, let alone a c grade gcse in them. It's cracking for all the kids below c too, it must be a real confidence boost to realise that your lack of c potential makes you not worth the effort. And great fun for the able dc, when they have to travel 2 hours each way for a-level cos their grades aren't good enough for the closer sixth forms.

Will the D -C grade boundary become grade 4-5 in which case is that not a bit unfair because a grade 5 is assumed to be above the current C grade at GCSE.

Will children who get a grade 4 at GCSE Maths/English be required to resit them ?.

is a level 3 in the new GCSE grading system is roughly equal to a D grade ?

The problem though could be that Level 3 and 4 are not considered to be a 'pass' or near pass and therefore prevent children from getting on BTECs or NVQ Courses. Hopefully Sixth Forms and FE colleges will use their discretion in entry requirements towards students who may have got C grade on the old system but instead achieved a grade 4.

A grade 4 may not carry the same academic weight as the old C grade.

"Yeah, my local comp is obsessed by getting kids over the c barrier at the expense of everything else"

We have established, I think, that your local comprehensive is a bit crap.

It is cramp because it's crap- not because it's a comprehensive.

Lurking- as I have said repeatedly- I would expect my ds's school- and any school- to get the kids capable of As to As. Regardless of parental input.

FreshHorizon's post summed it up singlehandedly for me and my circle. We are very middle class, highly educated etc. I'm not boasting but given you some background. Myself and all my friends income bracket above £100k+ (that's not total household income that's individual ). . BEHAVIOUR is THE reason why we would move heaven and earth and even pay to get into a good school regardless of type. If you ask all my mummy friends including their husbands -especially their husbands - they will tell you they want their child secluded from kids and families who don't take their education seriously. My circle of friends are professionals and many in serious and influential jobs responsible for the livelihood of many people in their companies. It's not about abilities and grades although that's a high priority. It's about ensuring our kids get the best education without other people's kids disrupting the pathway and disrupting lessons . I make no apologies about this. And I'm really pleased to hear in this day and age SOME schools -including comps- have got this issue nailed.

Will children who get a grade 4 at GCSE Maths/English be required to resit them

Yes, but not for the first couple of years, which puts those years at a disadvantage when they get into the job market

is a level 3 in the new GCSE grading system is roughly equal to a D grade

Sort of. The old grading had G, F, E, D, where the new system has only 1, 2, 3 so a 3 will be a D and a bit of E.

What do you make of this 'arse' ?

ww.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/ofsted-chairman-resigns-weeks-after-isle-of-wight-inbreeding-comments/ar-BBvWM7W?li=BBoPRmx&ocid=SL5MDHP

Is it possible to have a worse person in charge of educational standards, than someone who thinks whether in 'jest' or truthfully to call people inbreds.

This is because he has no answers in how he can improve the educational outcomes in the Isle of Wight ,so reverts to shocking language usually reserved for 'drunks' in a pub.

www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/ofsted-chairman-resigns-weeks-after-isle-of-wight-inbreeding-comments/ar-BBvWM7W?li=BBoPRmx&ocid=SL5MDHP

I'd never even heard of him till he quit. Reminded me of that scientist who said that he didn't like female scientists because they fall in love with you and cry all the time.

The D to C thing is irrelevant now partly because of the move to numbers but also because Progress 8 means that schools will be judged on the PROGRESS students make on average at each school from year 6 SATS to year 11 GCSE. It's going to put enormous pressure on schools and teachers as failure to meet the measure triggers OFSTED and appears in league tables. It's probably going to be good for pupils and parents.

My neighbour's son went to Oxford from my dc's comp and now he s doing a PhD at Oxford. The family still love the school. He didn't take the 11+. A country's most top grammar school is only a short bus journey away. Some of his friends went to some top grammar schools for sixth forms. But he didn't because he liked the comp's teachers plus the school s only 10 minutes walk down the road. The only thing though a comp doesn't have a wow factor.

Progress 8 is a nightmare to interpret. I'm expecting huge numbers of thread on here going 'wtf' once secondary applications open. And people will still look mainly at the headline figure.

noblegiraffe
"a child will have the same basic amount spent per bum on seat in any given county regardless of where they go.... Nope. The government is pumping more money per pupil into Free Schools. 60% more".

That is as close to a lie as you get. Free school children get the same money for their education as every other child in the country. Free Schools were given money to build/renovate their premises. So your spinning the facts to suit your agenda.

Your comment about Tim Hunt (comparing him to David Hoare) is disgusting. He made a self-deprecating joke, which was greeted with laughter and was well received. Audio tapes emerged that the reporter lied about what actually happened and had taken it out of context. Female scientists came out defending him because his talk had been about supporting women in science.

Poundpup
“a disrupitve child had been placed next to an 'A' student in order for the student to model the others behaviour”

Happens to my DC one a week, often it is children who have bullied my DC for being a 'nerd'. On another thread there is complaints about 18 year olds teaching children. Currently they use 13/14 year old to do it. Is it to much to ask for better?

Your comment about Tim Hunt (comparing him to David Hoare) is disgusting.

Both of them made unguarded comments to what they thought was a safe audience that then lost them their jobs. Get a grip.

If you are in a position of trust or responsibility , you are not expected to do a 'Gerald Ratner' for the aim of getting cheap laughs !

This is regardless of whether you believe , you are in social mode or acting in a professional capacity.

If a person cannot understand this, they are either stupid (in which case the job is beyond them) or more likely they believe they are 'indispensable' through an overgrown 'ego'.

No, Tim Hunt (who's career was destroyed unjustifiably) used a well practiced speech with a deliberate joke in it, David Hoare made an off the cuff comment that denigrated a community. Its not the same thing! And to conflate them in an argument about Education, shows either ignorance or an agenda. Shame on you!

Seriously mathsmum, you are really thinking about this too hard. Shame on me? One story reminded me of the other, for the reason I stated, that was all. Conflating them in an argument about education? I wasn't arguing anything.

noblegiraffe, NO you dont get to use a story about a feminist wrongly destroying a scientist's career... To support your opinion that grammar schools shouldn't be expanded. And just claim you were reminded of it, pathetic.

What the actual fuck are you on about? If I'd wanted to make an argument, I'd have made an argument. At no point in my random remark in response to 'what do you think to Ofsted guy?' did I mention grammar schools or indeed any schools.

I remember a story in the news about some science guy who made some dumb remarks to what was not a private audience and ended up losing his job. End of story, no agenda.

So please stop with the the batshit crazy accusations. Oh, and I don't actually care about what science guy did or didn't say, so spare me the details even though I'm sure you're fizzing with indignation.

And for those who liked my earlier link here is what Robert Coe, worldwide education and social mobility expert has to say about said article:

twitter.com/ProfCoe/status/766597518302011392?lang=en-gb

Are we actually getting to a sensible policy we could all agree on? It's only taken nearly 3000 posts!

A post which went in to part 1 somehow 1001 threads ?

I come from a grammar school area and work in a comprehensive secondary school. We are a consistently good school and have a high SEN intake and students from deprived areas. We get good results despite the top percentage being taking off for grammar schools and importantly produce a well rounded whole person at the end of the schooling system. Our students feel safe at school and don't feel constantly pressured to achieve the top results. The students are put in sets and each set is encouraged to work to the best of their ability. Our students enjoy their schooling and always speak highly of the school. Our school does not have a sixth form and as such some of students join the local grammar school's sixth form. They have been told by both teachers and students that their GCSE grades from our school are not equivalent to GCSE grades in their school! What nonsense. There is huge competition to get into our local grammar school and only tutored students have a chance of getting in. This is unfair for bright students who cannot afford tutoring. In our area students who fail the 11+ are made to feel like failures which cannot help their self esteems. All children should have the chance of a good education and grammar schools segregate people and make them think they are more intelligent than other students just because they have been tutored to pass an exam.