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Education

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Grammar Schools (given green light by Theresa May part 3)

692 replies

sandyholme · 17/08/2016 12:20

Part 3 ... Let the sparring continue..

OP posts:
BertrandRussell · 24/08/2016 08:58

Oh god- first somehow the whole debate is because of feminists (or something, I really really didn't understand mathsmum's post) and now sandyholme's posting anti selection stuff..................

sandyholme · 24/08/2016 09:01

www.theaustralian.com.au/higher-education/opinion/in-defence-of-selective-schools/story-e6frgcko-1226359975672

This is an Australian view about 'selective' high schools.

OP posts:
sandyholme · 24/08/2016 09:08

N.B: for your info The term 'Public' means state in Australia .
for e.g Sydney Boys/Girls are state 'grammar' schools .

It is interesting to compare probably the closest to our grammar schools on the 'international'.

OP posts:
sandyholme · 24/08/2016 09:32

An Australian 'Grammar school'

www.sgghs.com.au/

I think its fair that a posting that was posted in the wrong area was directed to the correct place hence i copied and pasted it .

My retired mum does go in to my old school and helps with struggling students with English literacy ! (this in itself is quite 'remarkable' after the furore she had with them about my schooling albeit nearly 30 years ago !)

OP posts:
Lurkedforever1 · 24/08/2016 10:06

bert it isn't just my local comprehensive choices though is it? Our area doesn't even feature on a list of worst areas, which doesn't suprise me as there are plenty of good schools too. And the area doesn't have the large scale problems associated with the worst areas either. But tbh, whether a child is one of 80% being failed in the area, or one of 1%, it is just as unfair.

Re your statements on grades, able provision etc you might not mean you want that result, but in reality that's what happens. If I posted the main stats for crap school, and the other that is only crap in its able provision, or one further away that is good for all, despite a minority of higher achievers, you'd never guess which was which without doing some serious digging, because they all appear to comply with your opinions, but with very different consequences.

Again, you miss the fact that you are metaphorically laying out all your childs advantages, and deciding ability can take second place to needier peers. But not every child has those other advantages. I can see the logic behind a deprived childs c being more of a priority than his a*. But it's not that straight forward. Nobody would expect a mc family to sacrifice the advantage of family holidays, two decent cars etc to get those deprived children to a c, or even to pay for support to get their own dc to a c. But mine is expected to sacrifice her advantage to provide it.

EllyMayClampett · 24/08/2016 12:20

I've been thinking about some earlier comments that a return of grammar schools is not a vote winner because more children end up out of them than in them.

I wonder what the majority of people who do vote think. Some parents would like grammar schools though they may be in a minority. But, not every voter is a parent. Some voters may have an interest in schools without being parents. For instance, how would employers view it? Families with secondary aged children are "at the coal face." But they are not the only stakeholders in education.

BertrandRussell · 24/08/2016 12:30

But lurked, you have said that you dd would walk A*s doing no work at all. I'm not really sure what you expect a school to do for her........

EddieStobbart · 24/08/2016 12:37

I think the point about votes is a good one and there is potential for older voters to support grammar schools in a "youth of today, don't know they're born" sense, regardless of the fact that the underlying working environment that the kids would come out into is very different from the 1950/60s where good "blue collar" jobs were more available and respected as skilled professions.

Surely towards the latter end of school, an intelligent child has sufficient learning to "stretch" themselves? Obviously if the school is poor then this is a different situation but the discussion above alludes to comps regarded as good not stretching children. Where children are from disadvantaged homes, I think this is a major problem but where this is not the case then sure the child's own natural progression takes them towards books and hobbies that stretch them?

EddieStobbart · 24/08/2016 12:38

Also for G&T, it is a different issue.

HPFA · 24/08/2016 12:42

The Australian system has the same problems as other selective systems:

theconversation.com/the-lesson-from-canada-why-australia-should-have-fewer-selective-schools-35534

HPFA · 24/08/2016 12:52

The question about voter support is very interesting and there are conflicting results from polls.

The issue for politicians isn't really overall numbers, they need to know how many people care strongly about it. Tony Blair assumed that banning fox-hunting would be fairly easy because polls showed that a majority was in favour of a ban. But he ignored the fact that those who weren't in favour felt extremely strongly about it!

This is what has happened in Maidenhead where no-one really knows whether the majority is in favour of a new grammar annexe or not. But so far its definitely been the antis who've been getting themselves organised to oppose it.

I'm sure if people in nearby (to me) Henley were asked if they were theoretically in favour of more grammars being built elsewhere they would anwer in the same way as anyone else. But if question is "Would you like a new grammar to be built in Henley resulting in lovely Gillotts being turned into a secondary modern for 80% of your children" they might have a different answer!

haybott · 24/08/2016 14:08

The thread has moved on but just to comment that I know people who were in Tim Hunt's talk and they did not find what he said amusing but embarrassing and inappropriate. He then repeated very similar remarks on the radio - he had the chance to take back the offensive parts of what he said and he really didn't.

It was not unreasonable for him to resign from the position he had, particularly given that he was already past retirement age. It is also reasonable for him to no longer be asked to sit on e.g. Royal Society fellowship panels, given that such panels have a history of being biased against women in the recent past. I doubt you would find many practising scientists (male or female) disputing this - although most of us would not agree with him or anyone else being tried by the media and social media.

HPFA · 24/08/2016 16:42

By a weird coincidence the Maidenhead Advertiser is today running a poll on the new grammar school annexe

www.maidenhead-advertiser.co.uk/poll/polls/103303/poll-should-a-satellite-grammar-school-be-built-in-maidenhead.html

While I'm happy to see No winning newspaper online polls are hardly scientific.....

boys3 · 24/08/2016 16:58

I'm sure if people in nearby (to me) Henley were asked if they were theoretically in favour of more grammars being built elsewhere they would anwer in the same way as anyone else. But if question is "Would you like a new grammar to be built in Henley resulting in lovely Gillotts being turned into a secondary modern for 80% of your children" they might have a different answer!

I'd like to think this would be the case. But........

when he who shall no longer be named was in his first term legislation was introduced to allow referendum locally as to whether a grammar should retain its status or become a comp.

Only one referendum was ever held, up in North Yorkshire on Ripon Grammar and was resoundingly defeated.

Amazingly, in my view at least, no referendum got support to be held elsewhere not even in Kent.

It is strange what people vote for sometimes, the EU referendum being the most notable recent example. Irrespective of the statements of the bleedin' obvious weight of evidence I think it would be far closer that you might like to think

2StripedSocks · 24/08/2016 17:34

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

2StripedSocks · 24/08/2016 17:37

This reply has been deleted

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HPFA · 24/08/2016 18:33

2stripedsocks That wasn't really the point I was making though.

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