At what point is going private NOT worth it?

[lexlees]

I was chatting to a friend recently and we got chatting about schools. Their only daughter goes to a top private school and it is a real financial strain on them. They reckon they spend 40% of their net family income on school fees and extras. All her wages go towards the school fees and even then only covers 2/3 of it - the remaining third comes from her husband's salary.

From my perspective I don't see how it is worth it. She maintained that it is not unusual. They just want their child to have 'every advantage' because both she and her husband went private.

Their girl is bright but didn't qualify for any bursary or scholarship and failed to get into the selective state school (they did try all three). Although the girl was top of her class in her state primary, she now feels so much pressure because she hasn't gotten an 'A' in anything yet. She is now no longer the bright one and it took two terms to make friends. I'd love to say she is a lovely girl, but honestly, she is an ungrateful and mean brat (she used to beat up/be cruel to my ds every time they were alone - then lie about it - hence I don't bring my ds anymore to their house).

They are putting minimal money into pensions and have only 'one term's worth' of savings. They haven't had a holiday for two to three years, never eat out and hardly buy stuff (except for stuff for their daughter - so she doesn't feel 'left out' at school) as they have a mortgage as well. They also don't have parental financial support or expect much of any inheritance either. I feel like my friend has changed into some penny pinching miser, always working out how to save pennies and she is just worn out from a low paid job!

It got me wondering if other people are just making ends meet to send a child or children private. Is she correct that it is normal? At what point does it become NOT worth it.

I really don't think that many independent schools offer sports coaching to a national level. It would be a bit pointless if they did, as here really aren't going to be enough pupils at that level n a single school unless the school selects on sporting ability.

The primary school my DCs go to offer loads of extra-curricular stuff. DD (Y4) does gymnastics twice a week, art club, watercolours, choir, newspaper and gardening, and volunteers in the library and helping pick litter from the area around the school. The clubs are run by a combination of school staff, parents and outside individuals/organisations who charge (some of the sports clubs, street dance, and art club). It's a very lovely school, but surely not all that unusual?

Soveryupset the younger ones would have had their chance later on. That's what happens with large families. I live in a rural area too and have double the number of kids you do so I get the issue.

School are there to deliver the curriculum, not an extra curriculum and while I'm sure they'd like to offer every conceivable sport and art in breaks and after school, what they do offer is constrained by a measly budget. I'm not sure they 'fail' children on that score, that's unfair.

NewLife4Me - 'world class'? No pressure there then....

I really don't think that many independent schools offer sports coaching to a national level.

Depends on the sport and whether it is one dominated by private schools. I agree it tends to be a handful of schools dominating a handful of sports. Many private schools have rubbish sports facilities.

Many Olympians came from fee paying schools hugely out of proportion to the numbers in private schools. My daughters' love of sport came from their private schools although they might well have done similarly well at sport at some state schools and sometimes played state schools at sport as does my son not just other private schools.
I don't understand why the private schools are harder to beat. It may just be more time to practise.

Jasper

They do actually, the same with music teachers.
The schools can afford to pay for the best to come in and the state peri's just don't touch it I'm afraid.
Saying that I don't think you have to attend a private school to access some of these activities at a high level, you can do it just the same by paying privately.
There was a girl who did this from my ds2 school and was at the Olympics, iirc swimming was the sport. Her parents paid a fortune but you couldn't expect a state school to be able to provide this level.

Mollo

She is terrible and works constantly at 2.5 she told us she was going to be an opera singer, at about 5 she was going to sing in the famous opera houses and at 8 she believed she was the next Maria Callas. She refuses to look at a plan B as this is for the less dedicated apparently

This is why I expect her to achieve her dreams, goals and ambitions, because she does.

Sorry, meant to add. My dds school has terrible sports facilities, there are no teams and nothing more than the curriculum. It isn't offered at GCSE and the children stop as soon as is permitted. I can't remember what year.

This is fine and made clear to those applying, there just isn't time for anything more.

I think sometimes State schools sports teams suffer if there are good local clubs. Many DC at DDs' secondary have to choose between school and club teams and as a result the school teams suffer. This is also starting to happen for my DD's music, and it is very much a hobby for her.

Molio, do you have 8 children? (Sovery said she had four, and you said you had double, if I am reading the thread correctly. But it is so unusual in this day and age that I just want to double check.)

At my children's state school, the peri music teacher is billed out at more than £42/hour! The children can start in year 3 and only have 20min lessons once a week. Hard to get past grade 3 by the end of primary with a regime like that.

I don't believe that the peri teacher gets all of that money. I believe the school is pocketing some of it for admin. Or, using the peri teacher for the individual music lessons and having the music teacher who is salaried do other things and then charging out for the peri teacher at the total cost of the full time music teacher per hour. (Which would include cost of benefits and pension, etc.)

DD is grade 6 after 5 years of 20 minute weekly term time lessons at state school. For the first 3 years they were group lessons. DD2 is approaching garde 4 after 2.5 years. So it is possible.

Out of interest howabout, how much do you pay per hour for the lessons?

Howabout, your daughter is very lucky having a good music teacher and she must be talented. My daughter school is an "outstanding" state school and the group music lessons for all instrument for year 3 is now still at pre grade 1 level. I dont know a child who at year 6 only learning from school music lesson did better than grade 2 in all instrument(passed grade 1 and still working on grade 2 test)

After 1.5 year learning violin in school's music lesson then I had to pull her out as I learnt violin for 5 years so I know she hasnt been learning much and wont progress too well. After only 3 months private lesson at home 30mins each week she has progressed much better than the previous 1.5 years learning at school summing up( she didnt even had fingerings right or holding the bow correctly)

Three of my 5 children have had or have music scholarships from private schools and to private schools. They had one lesson per instrument of about 30 minute at primary level per week, a solo lesson, costing about not sure. I just paid for one child for 2 instruments this term and those bills were about £200 for the term for a lesson a week and that is probably at 40 minute lesson now he's a teenager.
Unusually they had grade 8s or grade 7s by the time they were 12 and applying for their entry to secondary schools but that is not just the schools. It is their parents being prepared after a long day's work to sit down with them to accompany music practice on the piano almost every day no matter how tired the parent is and learning music theory to grade 5 standard at home and I taught them to grade 7 or 8 singing at home too (which cost nothing as i did ) and also because of music genes on both sides of the family mother with 4 grade 8s and perfect pitch and just the sheet pleasure of it - I sing and play the piano just about every day. That's a bit of a side track and you get equally musical mothers of children in state schools.

I do think it illustrates how parently involvement has an impact though and whatever the children do whether it be chess champion or whatever the parent being into it or helping helps. Also thye choose their preferred stuff - one daughter won sixth form prize as best of all sports at NLCS and yet the family effort was going into her piano, singing and cello. I just want them exposed to a full range of hobbies although they know perfectly well I will enjoy watching Monday night's concerto at school played by child 5 more than a sports match - indeed I won't even turn out to watch a sports match (and that is also because of having vast numbers of children and working full time to keep them) as well as not being into watching sport - I did n't even watch the Olympics. I also support children who choose not to do much at school by the way too. Some children benefits from loads of spare time thinking, being alone, looking at the wall, or chatting to friends. There is not one size fits all type of child thankfully. Having no activities at all is not wrong for some.

I think greenleave experience is normal for state school provision, tbh.
However, individual lessons in a private school or private teacher in the community will be no better if the child doesn't practice efficiently and effectively.
This, and the variables in the quality of teaching make it hard to distinguish which is best sometimes.
Personally, I don't see how group or whole class tuition can possibly work.

x post with Deo

*NewLife4Me I think greenleave experience is normal for state school provision, tbh.

For my local secondary schools (11 plus selectives with some overlap of applicants for NLC, Habs, MT etc.) the state primiary school provision seems to be sufficient for DCs to gain music places in their 11 plus auditions (whilst competing against a fair number of private prep. DCs). A 20 minute lesson is not enough but the practice they are instructed to do at home off the back of those lessons brings them to a fairly good level (plenty of grade 4s & 5s by the beginning of year 5).

Settling we pay £150 per year for the DD1 and then DD2 as the sibling is £50. I also pay £15 each per year for regional orchestras. Our specialist instrument teachers are all conservatoire trained. I will say that my 2 do benefit from having me as the practice police. They did also learn piano and strings with me. I know absolutely nothing about the inner workings of their school brass and woodwind choices though.

I find it very frustrating that there is such a drop out rate from school lessons. My 2 only do 10 minutes personal practice a day per instrument but it needs to be consistently almost every day. There is also a frustration point which a lot of people seem to not work past.

Just read all the other posts agreeing with what I am saying about parental support and practice commitment.

SettlinginNicely yes I do: girl 25, girl 24, girl 22, boy 21, boy 19, boy 18, boy 16, girl 13.

NewLife good luck to her then. She sounds exhausting! In a good way!

Howabout, 2.5 years of 20 mins lessons term time and 10 mins aday and grade 4 is a talented child

Greenleave Howabout, 2.5 years of 20 mins lessons term time and 10 mins aday and grade 4 is a talented child

Then there are quite a number of talented children where I live. Mind you there are grade 8 children who fail to pass the 11 plus music aptitude test so fail to get a place at their preferred secondary school.

@Mum: my daughter group music was 4 children in 45 mins and it was during school term. I had to pull my daughter out after 1.5 year because no progress and even now after 2 years the rest of the children in the group havent started doing grade 1 yet and my daughter said the group will start learning grade from next year. And mind you I know alittle violin too and did try to practise at home many times more than 10 mins aday but during this time my daughter had a very slow or no progress.

Having children at state school and only doing music lesson from the school weekly 20 min and achieved grade 8 by end of year 5 is beyond my belief!

We paid £110/term so it wasnt particularly cheap