ALL NEW; WHITGIFT/TRINITY/DULWICH/ALLEYNS 10+/11+ 2016

[MrsPatmore]

Thought I'd go ahead and start. Found the old threads really interesting and would welcome ongoing input from those who've been through the whole process.
Ds in Year 5 and we are looking at a mixture of grammar schools and indies for 11+ Whitgift recommended this year - we've been told there is a drive to raise academic standards. We're going to the Open afternoon on 10th Nov.

I'm sure you're right Ahmedfamily about the cut off points. Just perhaps more sensitivity would be good when the offer of a bursary is so crucial to some people's decisions!

I'm actually more relaxed now as what will be will be - I would have been upset for ds if he'd had a bad exam day, or not done the preparation etc so he/we would always wonder 'what if', but he did all that could have been asked of him and gave everything his best shot so I am satisfied that he will end up in the right school for him iyswim. If he doesnt get an offer, he couldn't have done anymore and the school isn't right for him.

Also, I have the next looming stress-fest to distract me which is my tax return ....

I've read that if boy passed Grammar or got a T scholarship W would give a bigger scholarship. But how they will know about that?

You are right jarofcalm. I have also had letters from them with that sentence in it so thought I would let you know that your not alone . Although they do write that in the letter, in my experience if you haven't got that document or whatever they need to hand in, a quick email to let them know that you will give ASAP, they would be happy with that. :-) best of luck, not long to wait now!

Muminfire, it would be usual for the parents to talk to W after offers are out. But the number of grammar places has increased a lot - now 450 in Sutton which is at least 90 more than just 5 years ago. And W has put more scholarship money into boarding candidates and 6th form, and has introduced honorary scholarships at 10+ and 11+. I'm not sure that discounts are now "negotiated" to the same extent as they were a few years back, though there is no harm in having a conversation. 5 years again someone who had got Wilsons would almost certainly heave been awarded a scholarship, but certainly last year there were many such candidates who just got a full fee offer, and from memory at least one who got Wilson's but not T.

Ladymuck - That's very interesting.

So in your view, does this mean that Whitgift & Trinity are becoming more selective or is it merely a case that the standard to get into the grammars has been lowered due to there being 20% more grammar spaces than there were 5 years ago? In other words, does this mean that an applicant at the lower end of the new grammar entry point (i.e. with 90+ more places) is not necessarily someone towards the higher end of the indie entry point that would merit a scholarship award?

W asked my DS if he'd done the grammars which worried me a bit as we didn't put him forward for them - no way was he ready in September, but he made a lot of progress and did a lot of prep in the first term of year 6. and also had a big maturity leap around that time. If he had been in the shape he was in in January for the independent exams back in September we may well have. I do worry that they may have used that fact to put him in the "not considered for a scholarship" camp with the assumption that he isn't in that camp because he didn't try for the grammars.

Is the only way that they know if the boy passed grammar exams if the boy tells them at interview? Can the individualy Whitgift Foundation schools see who the other schools are considering?

What about those lucky enough to have trust funds or schooling paid for in advance by rich relatives - they might not bother with grammar school exams for that reason.

There are more children applying for relatively fewer selective places. Croydon has added around 80 additional primary classes in the last decade, so there are 2,000 more pupils in just that one borough. And whilst the number of state school places has increased, even in the grammars, the independents haven't increased their places to the same extent, if at all. A similar issue arises in all of the boroughs nearby, and given that schools such as City, Dulwich, KCS, SPS etc have kept their numbers steady, competition for the independents has risen.

"does this mean that an applicant at the lower end of the new grammar entry point (i.e. with 90+ more places) is not necessarily someone towards the higher end of the indie entry point that would merit a scholarship award?"

Yes, that certainly seems to have been the trend over the last couple of years. I know of many boys who did get Wilsons, but no scholarship. Bear in mind that there are some very bright boys from well-off families who wouldn't necessarily consider the grammar schools at all, especially in a period of austerity, so there will be boys at the top end of the indie scale who aren't in the grammar pool at all.

Equally Whitgift in particular will acknowledge that Maths and English aren't the only measure of talent, and they do need to find at least 100 full fee payers in each yeargroup, so the overall range of ability is wider. Due to the fact that it has fewer places, and is also cheaper, the range isn't quite as wide at T. Whether changes of head will make a difference, time will tell I guess.

"Can the individual Whitgift Foundation schools see who the other schools are considering?"

I believe that the schools share sufficient data to know how many boys will get an offer from both.

They obviously have no access to the state school data, other than what is already in the public domain. Eg we know that there are expected to be around 400 unfilled year 7 places in Croydon and a further 90 in Sutton next September.

interesting! And what do they use that info for? i.e how does knowing a boy is likely to get an offer from both help them put him in an offer category that is less likely to be "wasted". Or is it a case of they will try and make their offer more attractive? If you're in the both camp (which must be teh majority of boys?) is that an advantage or disadvantage?

Why are there going to be so many unused Y7 places if primary school places (and birth rate) have dramatically risen?

Fascinating stuff Ladymuck - and good distraction :)

Croydon's current biggest pressure is on primary school places (it's one of the LEAs listed in by LGA as having the biggest shortfall in the country).

I am surprised there is such an excess of places for yr7. What's the source of that? But it sounds like a blessing for London as whole really, as they'll be able to mop up pupils from other boroughs where the shortfall is already biting at secondary level.

But given the number of applicants, to Whitgift in particular, from much further afield than Croydon itself, I'm not sure that availability in local state schools is going to be the whole story about pressure on independent school places.

"And what do they use that info for?"

Whilst many of the very local candidates apply for both, many coming from further afield only apply to one. For 10+ and 13+ entry, the schools have a reasonable idea as to preferences of a number of candidates (bear in mind that they do talk to prep schools heads before making offers). For 11+ there is a lot of "noise" in the mix. From the school's perspective it gives them an indication of the immediate competition - if T has 65 11+ places, and their top 100 candidates also have offers from Whitgift, then they might offer more places. If they know that of their top 100 only 20 have W offers, they may reduce their offer:place ratio. (The schools tend to not disclose their offer: place ratio) Don't think it has a huge bearing on the scholarship offers at this stage, at least academically, but mainly affects the borderline /offers/waitlist/no thanks.

"Why are there going to be so many unused Y7 places if primary school places (and birth rate) have dramatically risen?"

Because new secondary schools have also been built. Welcome to the Free school madness. We'll need all the spaces again in 3 or 4 years time.

ladymuck - I'm intrigued by your in-depth knowledge!

Re: W&T talking to prep school heads: is that something that disadvantages state school pupils even more, as the prep school pupil has another person fighting their corner? (depends on the pupil in question, I suppose!) Or do they speak to state school heads as well? How much does that really influence their decision, do you know?

Firefox - I think (having read last year's threads) that your DS received scholarship offers from W&T - did you chose W in the end? How has he found it? And did you have any idea that he was going to receive a scholarship there, until the offer letter arrived?

Okay I'm now firmly in over-analysing territory. DS had a Trinity interview today after school with the head of English and was asked to read out a piece and answer some comprehension type questions. Whereas everyone else at his school had their interviews last Saturday and none were asked comprehension questions that I can gather. Am I kidding myself that that might mean he is in the running for a scholarship? There was no sign of Mr Bishop though, although I was told on the phone that we could request to talk to him if particularly wanted to?

"is that something that disadvantages state school pupils even more, as the prep school pupil has another person fighting their corner?"

Arguably it can work against the pupil. With a pupil coming from a state school, W&T have to go on scores, interview and school reports. So when looking at borderline cases either at the scholarship/full-fee cut-off or the full-fee/waitlist/reject cutoffs, they can only rank pupils on that basis. For pupils coming from the local preps such as Elmhurst and Cumnor the discussion can look at where pupils rank against each other within school. So it is rarer for a scholarship or an offer to come as a surprise as a result of a middle-ability boy having a spectacularly good day in the exams and done significantly better than otherwise expected. It isn't in the Prep's interests to have too many surprise results. And for Cumnor in particular, there is always the 13+ route, so they're certainly not fighting for 10+ and 11+ borderline candidates to be admitted.

Where the prep pupils do have an advantage is if they have failed and won't be interviewed. Their prep head will find out as soon as papers are marked, which will usually give them time to consider applying to sit for other private schools as a late entrant.

Jgjg, is your son usually stronger in maths than English? How did he feel his English paper went at Trinity? And where does he normally rank against the other boys in his school?

Thanks ladymuck.

Good evening, Ladymuck I would appreciate your thoughts on our situation. Son had his interview at Trinity on Saturday morning, wasn't asked any specific academic questions . One question was based around current news and a couple of hypothetical type questions. Is this the norm for Trinity? I was expecting him to be asked a maths question or to read a small passage or something along those lines but nothing!
Thank you

Jgjgjg interesting as a friend of my DS had a Trinity interview today with head of maths and was asked loads of maths questions.

Ladymuck, "we know that there are expected to be around 400 unfilled year 7 places in Croydon and a further 90 in Sutton next September"

I take your point about new schools being built, but I am still surprised that unfilled places are expected. From memory, according to the secondary schools transfer booklet I read at the time of filling in the CAF, all of our local secondary school were oversubscribed. Or is it that the info re. number of applications vs PAN in the booklet was based on all applications received in the previous year, not just first preferences?

Hmmm it's infuriating trying to figure out what might be going on.

Ladymuck, DS said that his English paper at Trinity went fine. At Whitgift his score in both English and Maths was "high" in the words of the interviewer (marginally higher apparently in English, very surprisingly, as I would have said prior to that without a shadow of a doubt that his Maths would be stronger) so no reason to assume that Trinity was any different.

So my instinct is that it was a scholarship interview, but then I'm surprised that none of the others from his school (a couple of whom I'd put at a broadly similar level) had a similar interview.

Oh well, time will tell, no point really in analysing it to death!

Muminfire and Ahmedfamily - yes, it does look like we are doing the same thing. I keep worrying that I didn't say enough in the interview; are parents expected to 'advertise' their DCs to the school? It seemed somewhat pointless at the time, after all they had his exam papers and had spoken to him, so probably had a pretty good idea of what sort of a child he was. Now I am not so sure whether my thinking was flawed or not.

School Places
At item 8 on the last Croydon Council cabinet meeting school places are discussed. Similarly on Sutton and every other London borough I suspect (Jan is the time for the Pan London arrangements to be confirmed). There will still be lots of movement. Croydon LA are meeting with heads over the next week or two to warn what it means for each (think Invicta will reduce its PAN which helps other schools), but on the face of it there are a lot of Croydon residents who haven't chosen Croydon secondary schools on their CAF.

Midweek interviews at Trinity are usually a sign that a decision is needed, so it indicates that he is near a borderline, whether for scholarship/full fee or full fee/waitlist or waitlist/no thanks. Whitgift doesn't have a comprehension paper from memory, so it is possible for boys to score quite differently across the 2 schools.

Thank you, Ladymuck, that does sound quite complicated. No wonder it takes until March for all the place allocations to be decided.