ALL NEW; WHITGIFT/TRINITY/DULWICH/ALLEYNS 10+/11+ 2016

[MrsPatmore]

Thought I'd go ahead and start. Found the old threads really interesting and would welcome ongoing input from those who've been through the whole process.
Ds in Year 5 and we are looking at a mixture of grammar schools and indies for 11+ Whitgift recommended this year - we've been told there is a drive to raise academic standards. We're going to the Open afternoon on 10th Nov.

Oops, now I've done it!

The figures are those reported by the schools themselves for 2015. AnotherNewt - You're right, many of the schools have opted out of submitting their results but they all proclaim them on their websites during August. You should check their 'News' pages. They all give very detailed information, which is manna from heaven for this who like their numbers...

For 2015, there's been a big uptick in results for both DC and W but especially W.

A Levels:
W
A* = 31.5%
A*-A = 70.3%
DC
A* = 32%
A*-A = 62%

GCSE:
W
A* = 56.3%
A*-A = 86.59%
DC
A* = 52.8%
A*-A = 85.8%

As I said, there's not too much in it.

Accepting that many of the top schools will have improved their results compared to 2014, W and DC would both likely move up in rankings to somewhere like c.mid 40s (W) - c.60 (DC) based on their 2015 results.

W's GCSE results are surpsisingly (for me at least) stronger than Trinity (the top academic school in Croydon borough for the past 5 years), the Sutton grammars as well as St Olaves (these schools operate first past the post systems for academic entry and are often an alternative choice for those applying to W and T).

W's A Level results also see it leap above Alleyn's although behind St Olaves and Wilson's (at A*-A only). Clearly this is no guide to the future for any prospective pupils but at least suggests a positive trajectory especially considering the broader academic range of W's intake compared to the grammars in particular.

it's much more likely it's exam choice not school preference that takes them out of that table

No, the T head withdrew precisely because the exam choice made the tables misleading. Occasionally they appear in certain tables despite this.

You cannot withdraw from the Dept of Education reports. It is misleading to say you can opt out. And then once your data is published, people can turn it into whatever tables they like.

The Times (behind a paywall, so not much help here) and the BBC appear to have the best reputation.

I think I was looking at the 2014 tables, so my apologies on that one. DC do Pre-U for a couple of subjects, but probably not enough candidates to make any real difference to the count.

What it boils down to, I suppose, is that it's a case of minor differences between excellent schools.

Though, if this can be read into exam results at all, Dr Spence's influence at DC should be apparent from next year or so onwards (have I counted that right?) because the school has become much more sought after since he took over, which has meant they can be more selective.

By "opting out", I was referring to the GCSE results released at the end of Summer. However, they are included in the figures released around December/January. But as noted, these usually don't take account of the iGCSEs hence the consternation generated in the first place. It's all circular and academic (if you'll pardon the pun) as all these schools are excellent for the right child.

Speaking of new heads, both T and W will be seeing changes at the top of their institutions in the coming few years so there is a case of the uknown to be factored in following very successful and lengthy (esp. W). Plus the redevelopment of the Whitgift Centre by Westfield is bound to have an impact on the finances of their governing body, the Whitgift Foundation.

Certainly staff move between Dulwich and Whitgift, and the staff that I know would view them to be similar enough that they are surprised to see pupils travel to the other if they are on the doorstep of one.

League tables are informative to a point, but you can't really differentiate that closely between a school at 50th place and one on 90th place by 1 or 2 headline stats alone, as a lot can be changed by whether you allow pupils to sit certain subjects or not. I think that once you've managed to ascertain that they do teach to a level that will allow a couple of sets of boys to achieve As in the subjects you view to be important (I'm always sceptical about As in languages that don't appear to be taught by the school), then all the stat really tells you is something about the breadth of ability that they take in.

And if you are looking at 11+, then of course there will be a lot of movement for 6th form. Numbers drop as pupils move elsewhere, and new pupils come in - there is in effect another reselection process.

Another thing to throw into the mix is that W also offers IB which is chosen by some of the very academic boys. If all those boys had done A-levels instead their A* rate would have been even higher

Thanks for the responses re; Wh and D. The journey to D would be much easier for us (school buses v close by). However, we will need a partial bursary for either school and Wh seem more generous. I will give the D bursar a ring this week.
Anyone at the D Open Day yesterday (for 11+)?

DS started W this year at the lowest form. It is a great school but don't be fooled by the glitz and glamour of peacocks and the awesome elite students it has. It is a big school with lots of boys and not all of the them are what you would think is a Whitgift role model. Bullying exists and there are many incidents that are just dealt with as the victims are strong enough to walk away without fighting back. This to me shows the strength of the victim and the stupidity of the bullys. This will exist In any any big boys school it's when it is consistent that you have to think about. We hope our incident is a one off but time will tell.

My DS does martial arts but he is still in his first weeks so he his learning about society and that not all boys are like him. If he fought back he would think he is in trouble so this all part of the learning process.

So select with eyes wide open and remember this is just like any other school with boys from varied backgrounds.

The academic profiles of W, DC, A & T are remarkably similar and hence preference is really down to fit for specific children imo. Broadly speaking, these schools will be taking the top 15% of the cohort and thus are bound to have stellar results at GCSE. The pre 6th cull also ensures that "achievement" (in the narrow sense of exam grades) at A Level is fantastic also.

I do not think you can go wrong with any of these schools.

Hi... Never joined one of these threads before... But have been a long time lurker. Trying to prepare boy for 10+ for W & T, and suggestions what prep papers would be best? Current using bond but is there anything else that would be good.... Appealing to our experienced predecessors

The school will give you past papers I think

123littlepigs am sure you'll have found others by now, but in case you haven't, for DS I just googled 10+ entry schools and trawled through their websites for past papers. Ones that seem to remember having them on the site were Emanuel, City of London, KCS Wimbledon, Kingston Grammar.

Best of luck!

Or try here, some lovely person has done all the hard work collating all the links to past papers for many schools. Manchester Grammar is possibly the most difficult maths wise, St Paul's Girls English is also quite challenging. Enjoy.

Www.independent junction.co.UK/specimen/11.HTML

Sorry, just realised that you were looking for 10+.

123little pigs... We used a mixture of Bond, Susan Daughtreys book for VR and exam papers ranging from 10+ Emmanuel (easy) to 11+ Manchester Grammar. Habs and City of London Freemens publish 10+ sample papers and we used 11+ samples from other schools. The key thing is to know what your DS' weaknesses are and work on them, especially where exam technique is concerned. Good luck!

Mummyinatizz Routea3 and firefox1066
Wow... That's brill... Whoever put together the independent junction website is a person after my own heart... Absolutely bril.
Never heard of Susan Daughtrey. Will go look for some of her material now. Thanks Firefox. Always a fantastic wealth of information on this site that's why I love mumsnetters.
Application all ready to submit now...

anyone else go to the Alleyns open day yesterday? The headmaster was extraordinary - and not necessarily in a good way? He did a huge long comedy spiel about the schools history but really it was like watching the Gary Savage show. Like he felt his true vocation was as a stand up comedian? Am intrigued to hear other people's perspectives on him - what's he like day to day? He cannot maintain that weird persona the whole time surely?

Missed it Fleur but heard about the extraordinary headteachers performance! Several friends thought he was very funny but very offputting for others! I guess it is a school known for dramatic performances...

Question for you all - which do you think is harder to get into Trinity or Whitgift?

Oooh - that's a million dollar question Eldon!!

No idea - my clever, but not brilliant DS got offers from both at 10+ 4 years ago but.......

Off to the Open Day today at Whitgift this afternoon. The train journey and connections look promising so hopefully not so bad a journey as we'd anticipated. Ds looking forward to seeing the peacocks!
Anyone else going?

How did you get on?

Presumably there should be news of the new heads in the next week or two. The change in heads may change demand, but probably not significantly. But I would expect that some parents may opt for Dulwich given Joe Spence's reputation. In terms of difficulty to get in, Whitgift has more spaces to offer than Trinity but often it boils down to demand and parental preferences. Sometimes one school is in greater demand, sometimes the other. Given that T has fewer places it is slightly more common to see boys with a place at W not T, but it can go the other way. Most boys get both though, or neither.

Eldon... It's a difficult question to answer as many parents (like me) had their DS's sit both, and in my case he got offers from both too. My experience has been that T appear to not flex their numbers in the same way that W can (and does, as required) and hence, given that the numbers that apply to both schools is similar, it might appear that it is "harder" to get into T.

There is little in it, but if you held a gun to my head to give an answer, I would say it is probably slightly harder to get into W. This is because it is very clear to me that W have made a concerted effort to move away from being known as a sport school and are actively trying to push up their academic results (looking at their results this year, it might just be working). When we were looking last year, I was told by one of the admissions staff that they are seeking to challenge KCS and move into the "Academic top tier"... Not sure how true that is or whether it was just a personal opinion.

When all is said and done though, I would say that your child needs to be very academically strong (top 10-15% of cohort), have a balance of interests and capabilities and be able to demonstrate the enthusiasm and potential that will mean he can get the best out of what W, T, A and DC offer.

It's interesting as our school are saying DC/Alleyns (hardest) > T > W > Emanuel > Royal Russell (easiest)

Whitgift's fees appear quite a bit higher than Trinity's which is another factor for us to consider should we be lucky enough to get a choice