What makes a truly good school (not just in terms of academic success)

[Eustaciavile]

Hi wise people

We're at the stage of choosing a high school for our youngest DS and I'm struggling a bit

Our older 3 children have all had mixed experiences of high school-one experienced bullying, one found high school generally overwhelming and just too big, and one thought it was ok (mainly!!). They went to two different schools. All have come out the other side and gone on to uni where they've thrived, and the next closest in age to the youngest is about to start A levels.

All of the older DC have said I should find a "better" school than the ones they went to for our youngest but they've struggled to really identify what they think "better" means!

We have several schools nearby which are all similar in terms of achievement, Ofsted reports, size etc

So...in your experience, what are the magic ingredients that set a school apart from its peers to the extent that going to school is actually enjoyable for pupils (if that's possible)

Ps DS3,will of course have a say in all this!!

Teacher here. I would want a school where learning/ achieving is seen as cool by the kids, where there is a well stocked and well used library and computer access for all, with low staff turnover and staff teaching their specialist subjects, and where the head knows a good proportion of kids by name at the very least. A really interesting question though which I will ponder more during inset!

Thanks Yellow,
I think you're right that low staff turnover is probably a good sign!

A community.
What about clubs, anti bullying initiatives, mentoring, pastoral care?

Absolutely stupendous question.

I may need weeks to find my own answer - but a recently published book by the retiring HM of a well known school seems to boil it down to love, joy, wonder and trust.

So perhaps: thoughtful and considered leadership with the ability to recruit and retain brilliant staff; a willingness to understand that children learn as much from each other as from the adults teaching them and a real dedication to working with parents and the wider (local and global) community. Bit wishy washy ...

Ooh, I want to go to one of these schools! Any suggestions for an actual school in London which achieves these things? For primary and secondary?

Good pastoral care in addition to the above.

I was hoping that was implicit in what I said Bunbaker.

Any school would be rubbish without it.

Freakonomics tells us that the best schools are those with some selection criteria. It doesn't matter what the criteria is. The important thing is that someone cared enough to make an effort to make an application, that they want to be there. On that reasoning, you want the school with the most out-of-catchment students!

On a more practical note, I think that organisation is very important. A pervasive feel of "we know why we are here (our objectives), we know how to achieve those objectives, now let's crack on and do it". DS's school was very organised and had everything planned out. You knew from the first day of the academic year that if it was, say, Wednesday of Week 30 then it would be the U14s 5-a-side, cookery club and Higher Ed info day. They planned things and they did them. DD's school was dreadful at saying things but never actually quite fulfilling the brief (used to drive me bananas: awful role-modelling).
The plus side of all DS's extra curricular offerings was that they acted as 'carrot'. I remember one time when I was nagging him to get his hair cut and he wouldn't do it. It took just one word from the PE department - you do want to play for the A team on Saturday, don't you? - to make him comply.
The upside of state schools (available to all regardless of wealth, social class, etc) is their downside (if you can't be kicked out then there is nothing to stop you misbehaving). You want a school that builds in its own counter to the downside - some extras that means something to most DC, including one specific extra that means something to your specific DC. An inter-house competition is a good indicator of this (DD's school didn't run enough EC to make a competition of it. Besides which they didn't have houses).

Inclusion. Bullying policy and how it is dealt with. Resources available. Do the teachers make time after school to help if you need it? Afterschool activities, sports clubs etc

DO the kids from poorer backgrounds feel left out to those more fortunate or does the school close that gap by making minor allowances eg no Internet access at home so gives kids chance to research at break time

I went to a lot of schools, we moved a lot, and I felt the best schools were the ones where I didn't feel like an outsider because my parents were on benefits and had drink problems. Helped me fit in quickly and spotted my skills straight away.

I had one lecturer during alevels fill the gaps in my resources by gifting me art supplies left behind by past students because they saw my potential and refused to let me waste it.

At another school when I played after school football I was give football boots left behind so I could play in the matches.

High standards in all things and the resources to achieve them.

Really like your post, senua. I wish you would send it to Najat Vallaud-Belkacem ;)

Thank you Bobo.
Feel free to send it - you'll do a better job of translating it than I would!

Interesting question.

Having experienced two different schools for my DCs Y7-11 years, these are some things I would look for.

1. Rigorous and flexible setting as early as possible.
2. Strong discipline (I would avoid a school with a well used internal sanction room).
3. An ethos (similar to Senua point about a school knowing what they do).
4. Lots of well run extra curricular activities on site.
5. Acknowledgement that bullying will happen and evidence of a strong response to it.
6. Evidence of a strong teacher/parent partnership.

Just thought of another one.

What happens at sixth form - do pupils leave or join? That kinda tells it all (as long as you know your local area. DS's school did take on loads for 6F but that was partly only because many other schools stopped at Y11!)

I wouldn't want a school without a sixth form.

"Freakonomics tells us that the best schools are those with some selection criteria. It doesn't matter what the criteria is. The important thing is that someone cared enough to make an effort to make an application, that they want to be there".

Not the school itself then but the 'quality' of the families which use it?

A good school is the sum of its parts, surely?

And one of those parts must be the cohort and their families.

It's a virtuous circle, a self-fulfilling prophesy.

Some really interesting points to consider, thanks everyone ????

So...,,a stable staff team, anti bullying policies which are implemented rigorously, kids wanting to stay on to 6th form, a real sense of community and genuine inclusion for all seem to be the key indicators of a happy school.

A school's policies are only helpful if implemented - the school my eldest DS went to had all the expected zero tolerance to bullying policies .....but didn't implement them at all which left him at risk.

Lots to think about!!

Ps apologies for the weirdy question marks !!

But you are still left with the question of how do you actually identify a good school...

How can you tell if there is genuine inclusion etc. What questions to ask, and how to interpret the answers.

(btw State schools in Hampshire don't have 6th forms)

We went to open days at 4 local schools.

The one my DS preferred was the one where the teachers were very hands on with us visitors. For example, in the Maths rooms, the teachers were sat at tables with some year 7 pupils playing simple maths-related board games and invited our DS (and other children) to join them. In the French room, the teachers had french words on cards and sat with year 7 pupils and visitors to make up sentences. The after school clubs had displays, the most impressive being a war-games after school club with a huge model hill and town with soldiers where the prospective pupils were invited to sit and join in with the re-enactments. In the school hall, the head mingled with the parents and children and made himself available to talk to us all individually. It was teachers and sixth formers who gave guided tours of the school! Funnily enough, the school was very old fashioned, library roof leaking, old chalkboards etc., but gets good results.

Contrast that with the 3 other schools, were the head made everyone sit in the hall to listen to his speech and then disappeared, where the teachers in each department were more interested in talking to eachother and were just running slide shows or videos on their screens or had subject-related computer games set up on the computers, and where year 7 or 8 pupils were doing the guided tours. OK, yes, the teachers were there for people wanting to ask anything, but they certainly weren't proactive in engaging with parents etc. These schools were state of the art with computer interactive white boards, modern science labs, new buildings etc but only average exam results.

My DS went to the school he preferred and it's proved to be the right choice. Pastoral care is second to none and my DS is incredibly happy there, and making very good progress. Very little bullying as there are no barriers between teachers and pupils, so things are nipped in the bud before they become a problem.

Such a good question.We are about to embark on open days so would be interested in views of how you assess the schools policies against your criteria I.e bullying, or regular and flexible streaming?

Senua, I have made notes from your post so thankyou!

"And one of those parts must be the cohort and their families."

Schools are communities made up of teachers, SLT, children and families.

Which was my point nicole.

One part of a good school community is the cohort and their family.