Level of family income required for private school fees?

[TheABC]

Had an interesting discussion with DH over tea tonight, after reading in the independent supplement that the average cost of fees per term for a day boarder is 4k. We are approaching that in nursery fees for DS and it's a struggle. I can't imagine trying to juggle that sort of cost for two children over 7 or more years. However, clearly a lot of people are, as 6% of all UK pupils are privately educated and I doubt we have that many millionaires.

DH thinks the income ceiling is around the 80k mark, I think it could easily be lower, depending on family circumstances (e.g mortgage commitments). Who is right?

Because he does startlingly well and got the top grades and all the prizes

There's a balance to be struck.

Tiny classes (say 8 to 12) can be less interesting and less diverse, giving less scope for activities and, as Bonsoir says, can encourage laziness.

Putting classes back up to the 16 to 24 level could be better for teaching and learning, better for inclusiveness and diversity, and would be welcomed by teachers, particularly if it meant the school's fees (after staff discount) could be more easily affordable for their own DC.

I'm not a teacher. I'm not in a classroom on a daily basis trying to teach a curriculum, improve students understanding, equip them to do well in exams and teach them something more than just method and facts.

I think teachers will be best placed to comment on the best class size.

Funny how parents think they would know what's best. I don't and I wouldn't listen to parents or students either. Teachers, I'd listen to.

Interesting Bonsoir

I wasn't aware the the economics department at Bristol gave out lots of prizes to first years.

But that aside, you know as well as I do, that first year exams are not a challenging test of ideas. Those who get the best grades are usually those who Stick To The Programme and work very hard.

They are no measure of who is the best student, or who is the better participant during small group sessions.

Many students from cultures with large style lessons don't immediately grasp what seminars are for. They see them as small lectures and expect to ask only pertinent questions (ie clarification of the syllabus). Whereas they're meant to be idea generated. A collegiate enterprise.

But what is most interesting is your change of attitude Bonsoir. For many years you were highly critical of the French education system, despairing for your DD. Yiu entertained us all with descriptions of how the system was a breeding ground for French bureaucrats, how it produced good unquestioning citizens who did as they were told (until they all had a mid life crisis ).

What a U turn!

Now it's far superior to private schools in the UK. How convenient for you .

You're right, MN 164. I'm passing on comments I've heard from teachers but they're certainly second hand.

I do think schools should listen to teachers, look to the evidence and consider what's best for all their pupils.

Parents don't know best, which is why it's frightening that some "leading" heads lack confidence in this area and effectively hand the decision making over to the richest and most meddling on the parent body.

It is not necessarily what class size is best for the children but it maybe what class size is perceived as best by the prospective fee payers! I would have thought that one of the first questions asked by lots of parents considering a private school is classs size. A business will pick up on that.

Yes, my experience of big class sizes was very talk & chalk.

The only class we had discussions in was the extra curricular drama classes of 8ish.

When I went to a RG Uni with lots of other private school pupils our seminars/tutorials were silent. The lecturer did 90% of the speaking. It was like pulling teeth.

At (private) school I was taught to memorise, not think. Or god forbid have opinions.

I got A's at school but left Uni with a 3rd.

Local very academic private school has form sizes of 12 but 2 forms are combined for teaching so actual teaching class size is 24. Other local less academic (but still quite selective) private school has forms of 25 but the forms are also the classes that children are taught in. Local state school has average class size of 22.
The academic private school achieves the best GCSE results, probably partly because it's intake is already quite able but perhaps partly because it is easier to teach a class of 24 very able children than it is to teach a mixed ability class of 22.
I don't think class size at senior level is the factor that most influences outcomes.

IMVHO class sizes won't necessarily affect outcome (grades) among able pupils but it will affect experience.

Certainly intake is going to be very influential (grammar educated here).

I agree with you on that word factory. I think it may affect confidence of pupils as well.

" all the prizes "
how bizarre

but it will affect experience.
yy - indeed.
The learning experience is the vital thing - outcomes and destinations far less of interest to us for our DC.

What do you think ideal class size is wordfactory?

I am now imagining the following conversation, chez Bonsoir:

Bonsoir: And how are you doing at university in England, DSS1?

DSS1: Marvellously! My French education means that I am the best at pertinent group intervention than anyone else!

Bonsoir: Gosh! That is amazing, given the restrictive, repetitive curriculum of the French system, that places so much value on learning by rote!

DSS1: Yes! I am also top of the class, with the top grades of any student! Even the Chinese

Bonsoir: How wonderful! But how can I know you are telling the truth, DSS1?

DSS1: Because I have won all the prizes! And eaten all the pies.

I just think we need to dispel the myth that there is a special very expensive recipe to educating DC that involves Olympic-standard sports facilities, West End theatres, manicured lawns and tutorial-sized classes and that anything else will result in less well educated DC. It's not true! And, as granola has written about so much in this thread, no frills private education that is accessible to a much broader market needs advocates.

Ds went to a 'no frills' prep. The fees were very cheap, £225 a month. No cooking facilities, no sports facilities, no after school clubs but the teachers were lovely and he was happy (he left after year 6 having achieved level 6 in his SATS). I pay a lot more than this for his secondary school though.

Schools that cater to a different market sounds like a good idea.

It will serve some to keep the elite schools at ever widening distance from the majority of people. But if it's financially possible (no idea what the costs of running a school are like and what is pushing those increases) it could be a good direction.

Anything that can help reduce socio-economic polarisation in the schools market without reducing choice or freedoms would be a good thing in the UK. But I am sure there is a lot of work to do to get there.

Re the no frills - there is no nothing to stop people/parents opening a free school that works like an independent - Cobham Free School is an example of this.

What I think a largely silent majority of supporters of independent schools would prefer is if the super rich would go away and start their own "all frills" schools.

There are some weak heads of "leading" schools who, with the connivance of inadequate governors, have been giving in to the demands of this tiny section of the population. They are letting down their founders, their former pupils and so many hard working parents who are attracted to these schools by their academic reputation built up over many generations by heads of a different calibre.

It's maybe a hopeless cause to plead for "fewer frills than the bankers want" but The Times is on our side...

granolamuncher - maybe lobbying the Charity Commission to take a very close look at the income and expenditure of schools in the light of their professed objectives would provide a route to curbing the arms race to ever more frills?