A thread to discuss state selective education.

[Hakluyt]

I am conscious that this debate is clogging up other threads in ways which are not helpful and must be annoying for those threads' authors. I tried to channel the debate to a separate thread yesterday, but got it badly wrong. I hope this will work better, and will be allowed to stay.

"Surely if an area has super-selective grammar schools - especially if they aren't catchment based - then the comprehensives should be fully comprehensive as only a tiny percentage of the high achievers will be taken out of the system?"

But it's not just about grammars.

It's also about the impact of private schools skimming off the top layer (in my area 15% of children are privately educated).

Also factor in church schools which often take in disproportionately large numbers of high achieving children.

minifingers, I don't necessarily think that the 15% going to private schools necessarily represent the "top layer".

Repetition of "necessarily". Bugger.

And other comprehensives creaming off the top layer which happens far more.

So maybe comprehensive education is a myth and we should just all concentrate on our own children instead of some utopia that doesn't exist and is impossible to provide if freedom of choice is still to exist.

Utopia doesn't exist. However, it is perfectly possible to want to work towards a fairer system where we think about what's best for all children, not just our own, and where we don't teach them that "looking after Number 1" is an acceptable philosophy of life.

But it's terribly easy to desire what's best for all children if it just so happens to converge with exactly what you want for your own DC .

Essentially, you're getting exactly what you want.

It's other people who have to suck up their loss of choice, yes?

But in terms of state selective education, it's not really about 'sucking up loss of choice' is it? It's the schools who do the choosing, not the parents or the children!

I can see that argument applies to the idea of abolishing private schools, which is about choice, but as the parent in a grammar area, you don't have a choice, except to move.

And of course I suppose your idea of what's best for all children is going to converge with what you think is best for your own - as in the Venn diagram of All Children and My Children, the one sits inside the other!

What's much more problematic is where you have a notion of what's best for Your Children and what's best for Other People's Children. That's a circle I don't know how one could square.

But surely there can't be anyone who thinks that a system which labels 75% of 10 year olds as failures is best for anyone? Unless your child is one of the 25% and you really don't care about the 75%?

Erm not sure my dd will get a place(depends on get mood and attitude on the day). I most certainly won't be calling her a failure if she doesn't and frankly I'll be glad of some help re choosing her school.Ie if she doesn't pass it cuts down from the choice of 3/4 we're looking at. What will be will be.

In some ways I'd rather she was top of the comp,not exactly sure why this this stance as an aim is ok but a place in grammar not but there you go. The only person I ever hear regarding kids who don't get places as failures is you Hak.

kids who don't pass the 11+ are not failures....it's their parents or other close adults who often put so much pressure on them that regard not getting a place at grammar school a failure. Maybe these kids are not suited to the education offered by the grammar school...that doesn't mean they have failed. Surely everyone agrees all kids are different and have different skills and abilities and develop at different rates.
Hak did your dc sit for the 11+ and not get a grammar school place?

mmm1701
all kids are different and have different skills and abilities and develop at different rates.
So why make them sit an arbitrary test at 11 that wil determine their school options for ever?

why not send all the kids to the same school and let the late developers catch up in year 8 or 9

and those with narrower skills focus on what they are good at while still being able to have lunch with all of their friends?

There is an exam. You either pass or fail. There is a pass mark ffs! People ask you how you got on, and commiserate if you didn't pass. People in your class get bikes and other rewards if they pass. A year 6 class divides almost instantly into the ones that passed and the ones that didn't.

It is ridiculous to say "it's not a pass/fail- it's finding the right school for the child". Children are not stupid!

"
"In some ways I'd rather she was top of the comp,not exactly sure why this this stance as an aim is ok but a place in grammar not but there you go."

A) if there is a 25/75 split the school the 75% go to is not comprehensive.
B) because if you are at different school there is no possibility of moving into the higher sets if you are a late developer.

Hakluyt. You always say you cant have Comprehensive schools if the top 25% go to Grammar. Ok then you must have an idea of what percentage no of High Ability and Middle Ability pupils are needed to form a Comprehensive school.

An example of this could be (A) A non selective school in a selective area with an intake of 25% High Ability pupils 65% Middle Ability and 10% low ability pupils ..

(B) A high school in a totally non selective area might have 19% High Ability pupils 60% Middle Ability and 21% Low Ability pupils .

Which School has the more "Comprehensive "Intake

You're missing the point. A comprehensive school is on which has no selective element in it's admissions procedures.

Smokepole
A comprehensive school admits purely on the basic Admissions code

• statemented that named school
• looked after in area
• living nearest
• siblings

NO OTHER CRITERIA

and a comprehensive school should have the same demographics as its local area - which will vary across the country

comparing FSM at primary and secondary often highlights social sorting

Hoards of kids pass but don't get places,they haven't failed at anything.Those that have failed have been unsuccessful with one particular exam,this doesn't make their entire lives unsuccessful.They are thus not failures.

Most people are unsuccessful in races,job interviews and all sorts of exams at least once.They are not all then deemed as failures.

LePetit
Hoards of kids pass but don't get places,they haven't failed at anything
If they pass they should get the same educational opportunities as those who randomly got places.
If what you say is true the system is even more unfair than I thought
and more arbitrary

Comps having the same demographic as it's local area will often make it selective. Comps in expensive areas will have a high number of rich kids and become schools poorer kids can't access.

My sister can't afford the extra £200k for a house in order for her dc to join the demographic her local Outstanding comp contains so they'll be doing the 11+ instead.Funny how them being excluded from the all singing all dancing comp is ok but kids not getting into the grammar is not ok.

LePetit
What school is she in catchment for?
If its full of people like her, why is she too snobbish to go there?

She'd like to go to the Outstanding state funded one thanks the same as the rich kids.

Why should money dictate if exams can't?

Oh and said school is just down the road in the same city.I see no reason why they shouldn't have places.

The thing is, the catchment area unfairness, where it exists (which is only in a few areas) is not how the system is intended to work. The grammar school unfairness is intrinsic to the system.

And in our area- which is, I think, the biggest state selective "rump"- if you pass you get a place.

Presumably the places they have (which are obviously finite) are filled with people who live even nearer.

Talkinpeace. Incidentally regarding your assumption that "Cheshire East" could not be a fully comprehensive area because it was next to a selective area. The figures for all their 21 secondary schools could not be more similar. The GCSE pass rates of Cheshire East vary from 40%45% (those two( Crewe 30 miles away) actually the furtherest away from the selective options to 75% Sandbach Girls High (comp) The average school pass rate being 60%. The statistics regarding A levels is all the secondary schools average C grades varying from 200-220 points. This is surely a comprehensive dream scenario, as there are no high achieving nor low achieving secondary schools just average ones.

Also for no reason at all
Harry Styles School, Holmes Chapel Comprehensive 73% GCSE 3.6% FSM.

However, despite this, those with either the means academically or financially seem to prefer the grammar or private options when available.