A thread to discuss state selective education.

[Hakluyt]

I am conscious that this debate is clogging up other threads in ways which are not helpful and must be annoying for those threads' authors. I tried to channel the debate to a separate thread yesterday, but got it badly wrong. I hope this will work better, and will be allowed to stay.

Lets deal with the religious and sexist silos before we worry about the piddly numbers of Grammar schools

"do you really think that Muslim boys' schools will be condemning what went on in Paris last week?"

Do you think that your average church of england school supports "The Westbro Baptist Church"? Not all muslims are gun totting Jihadists. It has to be remembered that a Muslim police officer was among the victims of terrorism.

Talkinpeace. Actually a rather "Unique" thing has happened in Trafford their secondary modern schools out perform the affluent Comprehensives of nearby Knutsford and Wilmslow. I even posted on a thread about the Knutsford Academy A Comprehensive in (Osborne's constituency town) a school I know because of my brothers association to the town and the time I have spent there in my past). I stated that incredibly despite being a comprehensive in one of the most affluent towns in the UK , it is the "Modern" school not the schools in Trafford.

As soon as the concept of 'parental choice' came in, the likelihood of true comprehensive education reduced. Melissa Benn's book on education is very good on this although she would disapprove of me.
Why do I teach in a grammar? It's a system that worked for my dad and me, but more to the point as well as teaching 11-16 year olds I wanted to teach A Level. This was what I was always looking for when applying for teaching roles. In the areas I was targeting (for family reasons) that mainly meant grammar or Independent.

Reallytired
Most CofE schools do not use the church criteria for admissions.
ALL minority religion single sex schools do.
CofE Controlled schools do the national curriculum for RE - covering all religions
"Faith" schools - particularly minority faiths do NOT encourage mixing and learning about other ways of thought
they are undeserving of taxpayer subsidy

smokepole
So, Trafford is freaky. That's nice. One school is an anecdote, not data.

TalkinPeace
I think that your post is very prejudiced. Plenty of C of E and catholic schools near me do use church criteria for admissions. I don't see how a Muslim or Sikh or Hindu faith school is different to a Muslim school. Wanting a child brought up in an enviroment that supports one faith does not make someone a supporter of terrorists.

Our local sink secondary which is supposely comprehensive has worst results than many secondary moderns. Infact it has some of the worst results in the county so I make my son walk to a school on the other side of town. The comprehensive school on the other side of town has fanastic results due to have large number of rich kids.

A true comprehensive would have a social and academic mix of children. If we are serious about social moblity then we would be serious about getting rid of social segretation. (Ie, seperate schools for rich and poor children.)

Wanting a child brought up in an enviroment that supports one faith does not make someone a supporter of terrorists.
True, but they can do the faith bit of the bringing up in the hours that the kid is not at school, rather than at my expense thankyou.

If we are serious about social moblity then we would be serious about getting rid of social segretation. (Ie, seperate schools for rich and poor children.)
HOW?
The pupil premium is addressing it in one of the more efficient ways.
What would you suggest instead?
^remember that your plan has to work in rural Devon as well as Islington.

Every attempted way to resolve the situation is decreed 'unfair'. Brighton went for a lottery system for a while, I think some US districts do the same. However, obviously if your child was randomly allocated the 'worst' school you would complain.
Everyone, hopefully, wants the best for their children. That's how we end up here.

DoctorDonna
The American system also has the awful system where funding of schools is related to local income taxes - so poor areas get poor schools, making them poorer and superZips get amazing schools filled with rich kids.

Comp schools - where there are enough places for all of the children -as is NOT the case in parts of London- seem to hit the spot for most kids.

Selective schools are ALL socially segregated for reasons that are well researched, published and chewed over on here.
Catchments are rarely as diverse as MN posters like to think - for the simple reason that kids are only at any one school for a few years and most people do not move regularly.

Oh I know there are MANY flaws with the American system I was just using it as an example of an alternative - the lottery system.
I don't think anyone will change minds on this thread but good we can discuss here as opposed to derailing threads.
I know that the grammar school I went to was the best option for me. My parents let me decide. I was, however, choosing between a grammar and a RC school!

Pupil premium is not enough money to address the difference between rich and poor children.

I would give priority to pupil premium pupils for up to 20% of places at the best state schools in built up areas. If insufficent pupil premium children apply then I would allocate the places to children who live the nearest. My son has five secondary schools within a mile of his house. Two of the schools are filled with rich kids and three of the schools are filled with kids off a council estate. My son got into his school (full of rich kids) on the continued waiting list.

There is a 100K difference between a house in the catchment of the school full of fsm children and the school full of rich kids. The present situation major towns allows people buy their child a better class of classmate.

Rural Devon needs a different solution to big cities because there are far fewer schools within travelling distance. I have never lived in rural Devon so I have no idea if Devon schools are suffering the same level of crisis on school places as London. I have no idea what proportion of children are on free school meals in devon and how that varies across the county.

At least with a grammar school system the poor gifted child stands a tiny chance of getting a place at a good school. I feel we should look at ways of making grammar school selection fairer. Maybe look at evidence of classwork from primary school, teacher references rather than just the raw eleven plus results.

My son has five secondary schools within a mile of his house.
That's nice
but utterly irrelevant to most of the country.

Any solution has to be universally applicable.

When kids live in areas where its 6 miles to the NEAREST secondary
choice is irrelevant
free transport to schools barely exists outside London now
so the best option has to be
to pump money into the poorer schools
to reduce the social differences between them ie abolish all forms of selection

"At the moment, if you have an academically able child it is really not an option to suggest they are 'comprehensively educated' as its not tailored to upper abilities at all."

I disagree.

My boys have had excellent education at non-selective state comprehensive schools. They are very high achieving (A*s, Oxford offer, etc.). They've attended schools in deprived area and very affluent area (we moved house).

They've been in large classes throughout, mixed with children from all backgrounds, had teachers subjected to the interference of Ofsted/Gove, etc; yet have achieved as highly as children in independent schools.

Maybe look at evidence of classwork from primary school, teacher references rather than just the raw eleven plus results.

In the days when the 11+ was the norm, I believe that some areas did try this. Guess what - the places still went mostly to the nice middle class children - things like access to books at home, trips out to places of educational interest, having a wide vocabulary ('extended' code of speech vs. 'restricted' code, I believe), all make the difference.

That certainly wasn't the case at my father's grammar school in Bathgate in the 60s. A whole bunch of them got in from the council estate ex-mining village he lived in. It was a struggle keeping him there, but my grandmother was so proud of him. I'm glad he was given the opportunity, it was his ticket out of one of the most deprived parts of the country.

Bathgate is Scotland- and I gather the Scottish system may be a bit more egalitarian than that of (southern) England?

I did not know that they "ever" had State Grammar schools in Scotland!.

Doctordonna
As per this page
^en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Scotland_in_the_twentieth_century^
your dad cannot have attended a state Scottish Grammar school in the 60's as they did not exist.

It is surprising that Northern Ireland still has a fully selective system ?.

I guess the authorities never got round to changing the system as they had more on their plate . However, given that before the Good Friday Agreement Northern Ireland was governed from Westminster you would have thought the status quo would of applied there. That being the intention of creating a fully Comprehensive system "strange".

I am all in favour of selection and grammar schools. I was one of the very poor kids ( and I mean hungry, cold etc) who passed the 11+ and went to a single sex faith school. I was the only kid not to start school with the uniform....my parents couldn't afford it. However my parents believed in education and did all they could to encourage me. I coped and did very well and have 2 degrees from RG unis and a very well paid job.
I know how valuable that education was. My dcs are in private schools.
I would never have survived in a large comp. because I was quiet and bookish. There was nothing wrong with grammar schools ( and mine had a 13+ entry as well). The problem was with the secondary modern schools. Why did they not just improve those.

Presumably DrDonna's father could have gone to a grammar if he was there between 1960 - 64/65?

Interesting too, that the age of secondary transfer is 12 and I gather that the year starts at a different point. How much difference do those extra months of maturity make?

I think there are useful lessons that we could learn from the Scottish system, although no doubt Scots will be able to tell me of shortcomings.

I would never have survived in a large comp. because I was quiet and bookish.
You have no way of knowing that.

The problem was with the secondary modern schools. Why did they not just improve those.
How exactly?
Secondary Moderns are the schools for the kids who fail.
How can they be expected to offer excellent when the pupils who would have got top marks are at the grammar across town?

"I would never have survived in a large comp. because I was quiet and bookish."

You would, you know. You might have had problems at a secondary modern if you were in a tiny minority, but in a comprehensive there would have been others like you........Rather the point.......

can somebody explain streamng vs setting?

Most CofE schools do not use the church criteria for admissions.

almost made me spit out my tea. in London, most (all?) schools do.

Secondary Moderns are the schools for the kids who fail.

Yes, although they were a pretty mixed bag. Some were good, and some were absolutely dreadful.

How can they be expected to offer excellent when the pupils who would have got top marks are at the grammar across town?

Except that the 11+ was never a very precise exam, so a good few of the more able children in the Sed Mod would have comfortably been able to cope with a grammar school education. Let's hope that they got into the good Sec Mods where their ability was recognised. Too often though, I don't think they did, and switched off from education. Thinking there of my SIL who was ill on 11+ day, went to a Technical school, which was fine, but then moved house, and had to go to the Sec Mod because the Technical schools were few and far between. Anecdote is not data, but I suspect that there were a good few like her.