A thread to discuss state selective education.

[Hakluyt]

I am conscious that this debate is clogging up other threads in ways which are not helpful and must be annoying for those threads' authors. I tried to channel the debate to a separate thread yesterday, but got it badly wrong. I hope this will work better, and will be allowed to stay.

Definitely not me!

Nope. Thwt wasn't Word. It was another poster- but was on another thread and I really think shouldn't be dragged up on here.

However, I am with mini on the point that one of the things that appeals to some parents about selective schools is the low number of children with any sort of additional need.

I have no intention of naming or even checking if I am right about the lager drinking grammar school boys, however I think that mini may have made a genuine mistake rather than lying.

My son with special needs was at a grammar and they were not interested in him at all beyond the fact that he could get them string of A/A * grades, as a fellow teacher I was shocked. I would like them to fail their OFTSED for their poor standards of education and have taken the matter further. Even if grammar schools pupils get into university they can still be failed and the schools should be held accountable.

Well if it was a genuine mistake, there was no effort made to put it right.

Though enough time/ energy/ inclination to accuse me of disablist cleansing I note!

Interesting given my own dyslexia.

one of the things that appeals to some parents about selective schools is the low number of children with any sort of additional need.

I think this is certainly true. Given large classes and stretched teachers, who gets time and attention often looks like a zero sum game.

As the parent of a child with additional needs I think that is a despicable need. I hope that I would feel the same way if I did not have my son.

Lets lighten the tone and slag off selection by parental religion for a while shall we

Despicable need?

Just got back in. Minifingers comment about the "drinking non grammar school boys" was aimed at me because I posted that in September.

Ok Mini .I get that I have been "lucky " to have children whose greatest "crime " was to get detention for "gigling" in class or childish comments about other pupils from different schools.

However, I can assure you I am certainly not unaware of what "Serious" behaviour and dangerous behaviour is. I have likely been the victim of far greater crimes then most on here with a "knife" put to my thought by 17 year old boys robbing a family arcade when I was cashing up or being "lucky" that when someone fired a pistol and seriously injured a customer at a pub my family owned, I had just gone to the toilet . These are totally unrelated to the posting but mini keeps saying I have no understanding about bad behaviour. Might it be with all my experiences I want my children to remain cushioned and in a bubble for "Ever".

I don't think that being a grammar school boy would necessarily mean that they didn't commit crimes. I can certainly think of one who went completely off the rails, smashing up people's property, although not so far as I know getting hold of guns.

The one thing though I can comment on with "Authority" is Special Needs since personally I have Aspergers, Dyspraxia and Dyslexia. I know that it is like having two hands tied behind your back doing things that "normal" people find simple. I also know that given help, advice a planning structure children with such needs are often brighter more informed intelligent people who think outside the box, clearly if you have a selective system , potentially brilliant people (Alan Turing ETC) should be represented in it.

If we are talking about outrageous behaviour, a while back there was a certain amount of thread sabotaging, trolling, swearing and general out of order behaviour on this site by a gang of boys from a well known school in London

sorry have two cats climbing on me, I think it is despicable to say that you are choosing a school to try and avoid schools with children who have additional needs.

My son who was sent to a grammar school was excluded for taking a knife to school, Smokepole I suspect you would self combust if you knew he was in your daughter's class. However as he rarely speaks I suspect she would not notice.

taking a knife to school
FFS
when I was at school LOADS of the boys carried swiss army knives - it was a sign of being a geek

I carry one in my briefcase

My son was horrifically bullied out of school, this spread to in school. Someone told him to just stand up for himself, so he did he took a knife in and told the bullies that he had a knife. He was quite rightly excluded and we went down the managed move route,

My DDs both have severe dyspraxia and are both at a grammar school. One of the reasons for going for that school was because we thought it would better suit their needs given that it's somewhat smaller and more compact than the comp with a far less disturbing/confusing layout.

For the record I have just Googled my posts which number over 10 pages on this site. They are have a very consistent tone and my opinions have "broadly" stayed the same though out the posts. However, there was one post of mine that I accepted I was wrong about . It t'was the naughty Grammar School boy one, and that if he had been a "modern" or lowly achieving Comprehensive pupil I would have had him sent to the "Gallows" for a Cowardly attack on a Teacher . However, he was a "Grammar" boy so it was a silly Joke with no harm intended. It clearly shows that Grammar school kids can be more "cunning" and devious with unacceptable behaviour which is far worse!.

I think parents are looking for a situation where their own child will be getting the most possible assistance and attention. I doubt most people are "anti" other people's kids; they are just very much "pro" their own.

All that said, my experience at a state primary has been that my DDs' classmates with identified special needs are not getting more than their fair share of attention. The kids who absorb a lot of time have invariably been NT, overactive, attention seekers.

Smokepole I am sure we have all posted daft things' I really would not worry

Toomany - in the case of my DDs, it wasn't attention I was concerned about them getting (there is more one to one SEN support at the comp) - it was them being in a physical (built) environment that was as unchallenging as possible. As it is, DD1 is notorious for getting lost around school (she is in Y12 ). I think the general perception that selective schools seek to exclude/discourage kids with SEN should be challenged though because IME it's not as straightforward as that. Many dyslexics, dyspraxics and kids with AS pass the 11+ (as do kids with physical and medical issues). Selective schools can and do support such kids as well as non selective schools do (IME). DD1 had serious medical issues unrelated to her SEN issues in Y19 and Y11 and was very well supportd by her school. DS received a similar (good) level of support from his comp when he missed a term a few years ago with whooping cough, and he gets good support for his dyslexia and AS issues. Only a nnecdotal, obviously, but there doesn't seem much to choose between the two schools as far as response to challenging circumstances goes. Which is of course exactly as it should be (the design of the comp is atrocious though. It's almost as if the architect was going out of his or her way to make a building that would be an anathema to people with dyspraxia. It's been known to reduce me to tears trying to find my way around it!)

Y10. There isn't a Y19. And if there was she wouldn't be there yet.

My son is on th autistic spectrum, he was neglected and ignored in a grammar school. he was not supported in the subjects that he needed help and they dared to use his image in promotional material and events. The final straw for me was a suicide attempt.

There are good and bad grammar, comprehensive, secondary modern and private schools. You cannot generalise on pastoral care from one type of school to another, it will depend on the senior management team of the individual school. I work with children with a variety of long term conditions and the support we get from the school varies massively.