A thread to discuss state selective education.

[Hakluyt]

I am conscious that this debate is clogging up other threads in ways which are not helpful and must be annoying for those threads' authors. I tried to channel the debate to a separate thread yesterday, but got it badly wrong. I hope this will work better, and will be allowed to stay.

written
Yes, London's education is unlike that is most of the rest of the country
Out in the shires, CofE just means normal

Streaming
Kids take a test of some sort that determines their grouping for ALL subjects from PE to maths
so a kid who is good at maths and bad at English will be in the wrong level group for one of them

Setting
Kids are graded in each subject ( or group of subjects ) and put into a class with other kids of the same ability in that subject so could be

set 1 maths
set 3 English
set 5 PE
set 2 science
set 4 MFL
and move up and down the sets as they develop

LaVolcan. Are you suggesting that parents should not buy books/go to the library regularly, have outings to places of educational interest and ensure an expanded vocabulary in their dcs........because it leads to unfairness.
Now that is bolloxs

No mmm1701 I am by no means suggesting that - I am bemused that you have put that construction on what I said.

I am just saying that the children who have access to books, educational outings etc. were favoured by the 11+ system. Who is more likely to be able to afford books and outings? The person scraping to put food on the table and keep a roof over their family's head, or the more comfortably off?

OK Public Libraries were often a salvation for a number of poor children - but that was then, when we still believed in state provision.

shedding
You cannot have different solutions in different areas - because LEA boundaries are porous, the rich will always be more mobile so snap up the best options
and much of the country lives outside the sphere of big cities
look at Wiltshire as an example.

Shedding. "Great" if those with Dyscalculia/Dyspraxia or Dyslexia and illegible writing were/are acknowledged as being "very bright" and deserving of a grammar school education that would be right.

P.S if this had been the case I might have made the grammar rather than the "sink" I attended . The unusual circumstances of having "wealthy" parents who had "Zero Culture" despite this they still fell out with my sister for not going to Oxford!.

"Zero Culture Capital".

"You would you know"

Really.Wow the assumptions made for posters you don't know.

I went to 2 and was miserable in both,partly the reason I looked into grammar for mine.Considering a good comp for one but I have reservations. Sooooo many people with kids there say it's not that great until they're put into sets,that it's great with the kids in top sets but not so much for those lower down.Don't want my dc going through what I went through in the run up to sets and frankly the two tier system which exists there makes me think it's no better than the grammar anyway.

We shall see,it may suit her more.Lots more research to do.

Dh loathed the two he went to too.

You make parenting decisions based on your own experiences and what is best for your child.

oh and to have this freedom of movement between sets the comp lovers bang on about,you need very proactive parents willing to push at home,research,work with their dc and buy books.

My incredibly bright dh had parents who left school at 13/14 and one with low literacy.He never moved up sets.His girlfriend's mum pushed him out of school and he ended up getting into uni and getting his two degrees from good red brick unis after leaving school and whilst working.

The comp actually did very little to get him there to be frank and clearly parental involvement will always have the bigger impact which is why he is now the sort of pushy parent the frothers love to hate.

My father went to Bathgate Academy in the 60s. When he joined the school it was a grammar. It became a comprehensive while he was there.
In many ways it broadened his experience - it was a non-sectarian education, unlike the RC one his brothers and sisters got in West Calder.
It may not have been called a grammar school system but they passed an entrance exam at 11 and went to a different school for free.
This is not a thread where anyone will change their minds.

I think that basing decisions about our children's education based on our own experience can be a snare- things have changed very much. For example, when comprehensives first came in there was very little setting- it is now, I think common to most comprehensive schools......

"oh and to have this freedom of movement between sets the comp lovers bang on about,you need very proactive parents willing to push at home,research,work with their dc and buy books"

Not strictly true- good teachers and a clever child can do it without parental input- although it is harder. The point is that with a selective system there is no opportunity for a child to move into the top 25% if they don't make it on the day. In a comprehensive it is at least possible.

I agree movement should be easier as I believe it is/was in the traditional German system.

At DCs school, shuffling sets has nothing to do with parents. We find out afterwards. In my case on the first day of the Xmas holiday in year 10 ......

But it is fair to say (even if it is a bit of a no Shit Sherlock statement) that those with supportive parents are more likely to be shuffled upwards......

"I agree movement should be easier as I believe it is/was in the traditional German system."

But if the next set up is in a completely different school.........

I think the age of transfer was later in the German system? However, I believe that those who know the system have their criticisms of it.

Many of us are not against selection per se - we are quite happy to see our children placed in sets for various subject. What a lot are against is selection by a one or two day test taken at age 10 which then governs the next five years. (Personally, I always wished PE had been set; where I would have happily taken my place in the bottom set!)

I was always bemused by the situation in my own area - you had to pass the 11+ to study languages. We had a big Polish community. A significant number of these children didn't pass the 11+, so were deemed not capable of learning another language. Yet many of them were already bi-lingual. Madness.

Whilst the implementation of the selection process can be a pretty blunt instrument, the fact remains that many parents feel that their own children are best served in an academically selective environment.

When I look at my own son for example, I know that he would not have had the education he has had to date in a comprehensive setting. It simply would not have been possible in an institution that must (and quite rightly so) attend to the ability of the majority.

We have been lucky enough to access him the most suitable setting, because we are rich. But I feel very uncomfortable with the idea that this type of education should be available only for the rich.

Well, I did send my children to comprehensives - not an 11+ area - and I am quite sure that they had an education at least as good if not better than my and DH's grammar school educations.

When posters state their DC's educational expereineces in selective or private education are better then their own in comprehensives, Hak always observes that the gap of twenty/thirty years makes such comparisons invalid.

Or does that not apply when it is ye old grammar schools found wanting?

LaVolcan - selection to grammar school by a "one or two day test" and Hakluyt - "if they don't make it on the day."

There are safety nets in Kent to ensure that selection doesn't just depend on a child's performance on the day. Last year 2,792 Kent children were given an automatic pass in the Kent Test but a further 773 Kent children who failed on the day were deemed selective after Head Teacher Assessments were considered (ie their class books were sent off for assessment). Also 695 parent appeals for grammar school were upheld although this figure covers Medway and Kent plus out of county dc. Perhaps Kent could further improve the system by introducing a 12+ and/or 13+ test - I believe they still have the 12+ and 13+ in Bucks?