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Original poster

A thread to discuss state selective education.

362 replies

Hakluyt · 11/01/2015 15:07

I am conscious that this debate is clogging up other threads in ways which are not helpful and must be annoying for those threads' authors. I tried to channel the debate to a separate thread yesterday, but got it badly wrong. I hope this will work better, and will be allowed to stay.

OP posts:
Original poster
Hakluyt · 15/01/2015 21:36

So. Lottery.

And why is it relevant to state selective schools?

OP posts:
Original poster
Hakluyt · 15/01/2015 21:37

Talkin- you are conflating two posters.

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TheWordFactory · 15/01/2015 21:39

I think it's relevant because whilst there is a real problem securing places in popular comps, people will look to grammars, particularly those without catchment as a solution.

Whilst you dislike the selective system foisted upon you, many in completely comp areas are looking for the return of grammar schools.

LePetitMarseillais · 15/01/2015 21:39

Sooooo define m/c.What does it start at?

Oh and I do know families like you describe,they do stress over it and they do care.The fact is families on the lowest up to the highest do care and do the best they can.For some it will be a RI school,instead of a SM school,for some a Good instead of RI and so on.

Original poster
Hakluyt · 15/01/2015 21:40

"Everybody does it" did make me Hmm a bit too, though!

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TheWordFactory · 15/01/2015 21:42

I think a better observation is that anyone who can afford it, does it.

TalkinPeace · 15/01/2015 21:42

Sorry Wordfactory - at least you always have the courtesy to admit that your social circle and financial capacity is unusual.

Lepetit seems to think that she understands how those on median and below incomes live.

philo / word
A house in my road is for rent for £1200 a month - and it is in the BAD catchment.
Those on low incomes take what they can afford. School catchment choices are a luxury well beyond their means.

Original poster
Hakluyt · 15/01/2015 21:44

"
"Whilst you dislike the selective system foisted upon you, many in completely comp areas are looking for the return of grammar schools."

And round and round we go. Are they also looking for the return of th secondqry modern, or will they just go private if their children fail are assessed as suitable for high school?

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TalkinPeace · 15/01/2015 21:45

word
many in completely comp areas are looking for the return of grammar schools.
Do you have a non MN link for that? - as its not something that either DH who goes to schools everywhere or I have ever, ever heard.

Politicians wiffle on about it, but parents tend not to

LePetitMarseillais · 15/01/2015 21:45

You have absolutely no idea of what circles I live in or have experience of.

Again your experience doesn't speak for all.

LePetitMarseillais · 15/01/2015 21:47

Talkin for somebody who constantly has to remind us that she has a husband who goes to schools everywhere you seem mighty uninformed.

Oh and you do realise the rest of us might have a fair bit of experience in various schools too.Wink

smokepole · 15/01/2015 21:49

Talkinpeace talks about the real average wage or family income in the uk with great authority and knowledge. The figures of £26-35K family incomes (I.e the Lower Middle, Aspirational Working class) should be the target audience of grammar schools. Whether that is true of a lot of grammar schools I doubt, although that is probably the range of family incomes at DDs2 and DS "Working Class" Grammar's.

Original poster
Hakluyt · 15/01/2015 21:50

"You have absolutely no idea of what circles I live in or have experience of."

Well, your belief that everyone "flips"'property for school catchment purposes does seem a bit diagnostic.................

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TheWordFactory · 15/01/2015 21:51

philo it's true that the cost of property in good catchment areas means that rents are high.

Higher than is doable for most poor families. But the rents are more doable for many families than buying IYSWIM.

Philoslothy · 15/01/2015 21:53

I have to admit that I rarely here parents talking about grammar schools, however talkin just because your husband goes in to work with students in schools that does not mean that he knows what their parents want.

I suspect I rarely hear it because if parents passionately wanted a grammar school they would move to the grammar area.

LePetitMarseillais · 15/01/2015 21:55

"Flips properties"- if you mean looks up school choices pre 5 years old and factors in Oftsed reports alongside a rental/buying move in order to get the best they can whether it ve a RI,Good or even Oustanding school yes it isn't only the middle classes who do this and it's v patronising to infer otherwise.

Philoslothy · 15/01/2015 21:55

I can afford to live just about whenever I want to, school catchments ( aside from not being in a grammar school area) did not figure in our decisions about where to live.

TalkinPeace · 15/01/2015 21:55

Wordfactory
But the rents are more doable for many families than buying IYSWIM
How?
Landlords make a profit, so charge more than the mortgage.

Yup the current mortgage rules demanding 25% deposits are a killer, but when I rented my old house out I was charging double my mortgage
and my clients who rent increase their rents as each tenancy rolls over even as the mortgage drops ....

TheWordFactory · 15/01/2015 21:58

Och the proof that people flock to grammars is that ... People flock to grammars.

Seriously , if you build them they will come Grin.

Philoslothy · 15/01/2015 21:58

OFSTED reports change as well, when we moved here our children went to a school that required improvement, it then went to satisfactory. The secondary has gone good, outstanding and then good again. Exam results also go up and down, sounds exhausting having to move all the time. Biggest influence on educational outcome is parental involvement - I think,

LePetitMarseillais · 15/01/2015 22:01

Philosophy you differ to pretty much all the parents I know who range from those in social housing up to those with swimming pools. The vast maj want the best they can offer for their dc and will do the best they can so money is pretty much the biggest selective factor in state education imvho and Sutton agrees.

Original poster
Hakluyt · 15/01/2015 22:01

They flock to grammars....

And the secondqry moderns? Do thy flock to them too?

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TheWordFactory · 15/01/2015 22:02

philo that is true to some extent.

But where the money has bought up the houses in a good catchment it becomes a self fulfilling prophesy.

The people who have been prepared to invest silly money support the school to the hilt. So results are great. And because those results are great, the next set of buyers and renters line up.

And because they have paid over the odds, they support the school ...

LePetitMarseillais · 15/01/2015 22:03

Who said people move all the time?

Most people look ahead for a half decent secondary with a half decent feeder primary.Only takes one move and then you generally have to suck up what is thrown at you.

Philoslothy · 15/01/2015 22:04

Most schools really do not vary that much IME. Growing up we certainly never lived in good school catchments. I have never discussed or stressed a outer school catchments - other than not wanting to be in a grammar school. IME those with money who care pay for a tutor to get their children in a grammar school or pay for private.