Grrrr, why does this irk me so!?! Warning - this is about private schools!

[BogeyNights]

DS1 has just started high school. Got into our first choice (state) school, and he's settled in great. We, as in my DH and DS are all really pleased with our choice and we are incredibly relieved and happy that things are going well so far.
My DS2 is at Junior (state) school, and this too is fantastic. We love the school, staff, ethos and atmosphere and both boys have been (and are) very happy there.

So why does it grate on me so much that all (and I mean ALL) their cousins go to private schools. I feel like the poor relative, which is crazy because we're not. And I have to listen to the parents bang on about 'speech day' and 'saturday school', 'entrance exams' and 'after school prep' and other such stuff. And now there's chat about 'having to find a sporty school for cousin Billy because it's so important to him.'

State schools do offer sport! Some of them even 'specialise' in sport. DSs school offers sports clubs before and after school and at lunch EVERY DAY. But is specialises in humanities (whatever that means!) and other schools specialise in science and other subjects. What the heck is wrong with state schools - btw all the cousins live in 'naice' areas of the country, where the term 'special measures' is no doubt very rarely applied to a school near them.

I know it's all about choice but I still grates. Although on reflection, I suppose I know lots more kids that go to state schools and they're all ok - ie the ones who go with my kids!

Just a rant, and a grumble... thanks for listening :)

"Are you saying that every people with money and connections send their child to private schools?"

'Every'?

Yes, of course I'm saying that.

Why the look. For you to actually say that anyone with money and power send their child private shows how skewed and distorted your outlook of life really is. You are saying that Tony Blair, Michael Gove, Nick Clegg have no money or power as their children do attend state schools - skewed intakes, but still state schools nonetheless. Also, yo say there there are no parents at state schools who are wealthy is patently wrong. You need to stop looking at the world eith bitterness clouding your judgement, and thy and be more objective.

Blair, Gove and Clegg send their kids to state schools because there would be a political shit storm if they used private schools. They put their own careers before what (perhaps?) they would otherwise have thought best for their child. Look what happened tp Diane Abbott.

"For you to actually say that anyone with money and power send their child private"

I didn't say that.

Hence the look.

"You need to stop looking at the world eith bitterness clouding your judgement"

And you need to stop misreading my posts.

In any case - objecting to inequality of opportunity in education is a perfectly rational and ethical stance. Not all of us have 'it's all about me' as our starting and ending point in relation to these issues.

If someone who can pay for expensive catchments, grammar school tuition and catchment and/or private schools chooses to send their child to the local failing secondary, then they are seriously putting their principles first and have all my respect.

I dislike people who say they object morally to private schools, but then spend 500k to move next to the best possible school/find a faith/pay thousands on tutoring for 11+ grammar school and then take the moral high ground.

"but then spend 500k to move next to the best possible school/find a faith/pay thousands on tutoring for 11+ grammar school and then take the moral high ground."

Well - maybe you know a lot of hypocritical people then.

I don't.

All very well looking down your nose at people who choose private schools minifingers, but if your choice is a state school that only manages to get 38% of the kids getting 5 GCSEs (A-C grades) then a private school where 99% of the kids get 10 GCSEs (A*-B grades) starts to look very appealing.

Stamp duty, conveyancing fees, moving costs are horrendous and that's before you even consider the astronomical premium for a school in a naice area with good state schools.

We're lucky to have DD at a superb state primary (70% FSM so no leafy suburbs here), but the ones my siblings' kids attend are very, very mediocre. If you have good state schools nearby it's easy to forget that many people don't.

We made a choice to have one child - that way, if we only have the choice of a very mediocre secondary we can pay for a private school. It's normal to want to give your child a good start in life - if the state can't provide it then those who can will look elsewhere.

"If someone who can pay for expensive catchments, grammar school tuition and catchment and/or private schools chooses to send their child to the local failing secondary, then they are seriously putting their principles first and have all my respect"

And all my contempt!
Unless, of course, they also feed their kids crap food, never take them anywhere, and slap them about the head when they are annoying. Because that's what some poor unfortunate have to put up with.

Ds and his cousin were born ten days apart. Ds went to our local schools, dn went private from age 3. SIL boasted, bragged and pitied my "poor ds" who wasn't in a class of 9 and didn't get to wear a stripy blazer
She is very much quieter now that he is still in his minimum wage job 8 years later that led on from his apprenticeship that was given as a favour to dbil and doesn't like to speak of my ds and his management role in Local Government who are funding his Masters.
Just sit quietly chances are that your son will do equally as well as his cousins and think of the money you've saved. SIL isn't at all vocal now on the virtues of a private education and saves her venom for Local Government (that ds works for) and their lazy overpaid employees (thinly disguised dig at ds although she denies that)

"All very well looking down your nose at people who choose private schools minifingers, but if your choice is a state school that only manages to get 38% of the kids getting 5 GCSEs (A-C grades) then a private school where 99% of the kids get 10 GCSEs (A*-B grades) starts to look very appealing."

You'll find that the school where 99% of the children get 10 GCSE's will only take in high ability children who are also achieving highly when they leave primary.

GCSE outcomes overwhelmingly reflect intake.

The thing is, bad teaching and poor school leadership and management do make a difference to the experiences and exam results of children. What's more, with a diminishing sense of community in many areas, what is going to help people keep faith with and make a commitment to their local school, rather than desert the sinking ship?

I was in the position of your son as a child. I have 11 cousins and 9 of them went to highly regarded private/public schools. My sister and I went to a very average comprehensive as did 2 of our cousins. The comparison was quite stark and I really did feel it. My cousins got to do amazing school productions, play a bewildering variety of sports to a high level, go on foreign tours, have long school holidays, take part in every kind of club going from CCF to Ancient Greek. And my school had a mediocre show once every couple of years, no pool, no astro, few trips and the one tennis court was out of action for 6 of my 7 years there.

BUT - I got the same or better GCSE and A Level results than every single one of them and went to as good or better a university than all of them too. And (as a snotty 16 year old) I told my cousin of the same age that I had had to work harder for our (identical) results than he had because his school made it easy for him. I think I was probably right but it wasn't necessary to say so!

I do now understand the reasoning about a 'sporty school for cousin Billy' though. I work in a private school now and it took me a long time to get used to the idea of finding the 'right' school for every child instead of just sending them to the nearest like most people have to. Each of our children seem to go through a 2 year process of parental discussions, meetings with form tutors, headteacher etc, open mornings, blah blah blah just to find the right 'fit' of school.

It's started for me this year with my eldest. Comments I've had from colleagues just in the last few weeks include,
'Have you considered this school, they've got a fantastic dance department'
'You couldn't send Vannah there, they'd eat her alive.'
'This school is great pastorally because it's so much smaller.'
'I don't think boarding would be the right environment but otherwise this school ticks all your boxes.'
'This school puts way too much emphasis on sport, she'd hate it.'
'Watch out for the pressure cooker aspect here, I don't think Vannah would cope.'
And on and on and on - it's bewildering! And realistically she's going to end up wherever I can get her a decent bursary/scholarship to be honest!

Manic, not dissimilar to you. My cousins euphemirically i now think were "not so academic" yet went privately to good schools with great facilities, encouraging teachers and more to the point, great contacts! Thanks mainly to said contacts and the confidence instilled at school, they've all gone on to found their own successful companies.

Sovery

Totally agree.

"I've come to the conclusion that the people that send their kids there are buying a certain way of life as well as an education. There's a certain very set route through life they want their children to take, mixing with a certain type of person and making the right contacts. Getting into The Perfect School and then paying a fortune for it is how they try to guarantee it."
What amazes me about this thread which I've kept away from and others of similar ilk is that it's fine for those who don't like independent education to make sweeping generalisations about parents who choose to send to their DC's to independent schools but if parents who pays even hint about disruptive children or trouble on school bused (I'm not saying this is a regular occurrence in state schools) they get jumped on.
We all have different motivations for paying, those who don't cannot know everyone reasons yes of course there are people who are buying a certain life style, other a certain type of education, others do it without even thinking about it, some want for different reasons. But I completely fail to see what harm we're doing to those children in state education. I frequently read how teaching in state ed is better, children are apparently less spoon fed in the state sector, this is not my experience but I'm sure some have other experiences. Someone on here said sport is better in state ed, although of course the fact that a large number of the Olympic GB team were educated in private schools doesn't actually support this claim, many imply that results are better in the state sector, (education in my book as many know is not all a pit results) but the top performing UK school in terms of results and university destinations is of course an independent school. Putting these facts aside if those of you who are so against independent ed. are right why do you get so hot under the collar about it? It's my money and my DC at the end of the day, I'm not asking you to contribute towards my fees so why does it matter so much to you?

happy - you always rather conveniently conflate different peoples' arguments so as to come to the erroneous conclusion that everyone anti-private education thinks state education is better, anyway.

*I was in the position of your son as a child. I have 11 cousins and 9 of them went to highly regarded private/public schools. My sister and I went to a very average comprehensive as did 2 of our cousins. The comparison was quite stark and I really did feel it. My cousins got to do amazing school productions, play a bewildering variety of sports to a high level, go on foreign tours, have long school holidays, take part in every kind of club going from CCF to Ancient Greek. And my school had a mediocre show once every couple of years, no pool, no astro, few trips and the one tennis court was out of action for 6 of my 7 years there.

BUT - I got the same or better GCSE and A Level results than every single one of them and went to as good or better a university than all of them too. And (as a snotty 16 year old) I told my cousin of the same age that I had had to work harder for our (identical) results than he had because his school made it easy for him. I think I was probably right but it wasn't necessary to say so!*

Just out of interest, how successful are the lot of you now as adults?

manicinsomniac You wrote a really interesting post but you didn't take it far enough!

Do you think you could comment on whether your cousins' education has had any more beneficial effects on their lives since then. I'm not talking about "contacts" or money or possessions.

You listed their sporting and cultural opportunities; have these made a difference to their cultural engagement or personal enjoyment of life? Are their interior monologues richer in reference than yours? Around a dining table or watching the TV News might their contributions to debate be more clearly thought out or original? If they found themselves on a desert island would they be able to keep themselves amused purely with what's in their heads?

These are pointless questions, I know. Because it would depend on where you each started from and how hard you'd worked on personal development at every stage of your lives - but these are the questions that have influenced my own family's schooling decisions (money aside,) much more than whether this or that school is higher in the league tables.

And you are now yourself working in a private school. Explain!

rabbit no I don't but I just get tired or endless generalisation about parents motivations for paying; exam results, obsessive desire to avoid undesirable children or connections later in life and the endless examples of how their local state school beats all independent schools in terms of results, which it doesn't by the way, children in independent schools are spoon-fed to get better results, they might be in some but not in all but this also applies to the state sector and that this spoon feeding enables children who are not really intellectually up much to get into the top universities.
As I've repeatedly said there are rubbish mediocre good and outstanding in both sectors, and paying doesn't guarantee it will be better. But at the end the day it doesn't matter because providing no one else is being asked to contribute to the fees it's an individual parents money and they can do what the hell they like with it and are also free to believe that for their individual child the independent school they've chosen in better than the state school up the road however marvellous or crap it might be.

Aaargh .. Scrub out the league tables ref. what I meant was - do you genuinely feel that your roughly equal exam results completely negate the value of their fee funded education?

Bloody hell, Zero, that's quite a headspinner! Okay, I shall try!

Do you think you could comment on whether your cousins' education has had any more beneficial effects on their lives since then. I'm not talking about "contacts" or money or possessions.

Aside from contacts, money and possessions the only thing I can think of is that they have a confidence and abilities as a leader that don't have. They are able to talk to anyone about anything in any situation with apparent ease. But that could be about personality as much as education.

You listed their sporting and cultural opportunities; have these made a difference to their cultural engagement or personal enjoyment of life?

Yes. One is on the British team in a minor sport. Another played Cricket for England (Under 21s and reserves, never first team). All played county and regional level sport into adulthood. But they are sporty and I'm not. I've done an awful lot more cultural/arty stuff than them.

Are their interior monologues richer in reference than yours? Around a dining table or watching the TV News might their contributions to debate be more clearly thought out or original? If they found themselves on a desert island would they be able to keep themselves amused purely with what's in their heads?

Haha, no!

And you are now yourself working in a private school. Explain!

This was initially a purely practical decision. I got pregnant in my 2nd year at university, no father on the scene. I knew I was going to be a single parent with no support so I had to find a career with free wraparound childcare from age 2 - an all through private school was the only thing I could think of! So I trained as a teacher and applied only to private schools. Now my children are almost 12, 7 and 0 and all three can still get 85% free education and 100% free childcare till whatever time at night necessary.

do you genuinely feel that your roughly equal exam results completely negate the value of their fee funded education?

No. I think they got extra curricular experiences I would have killed for. I also think, as a shy, academic and artsy pupil, I would have ad many more friends in the right private school. I wasn't necessarily aware of the difference as a child but I see it in what my own children do now.

I don't think private education is necessarily better. But I do think the private school experience is almost always better (obviously there are some great state schools and some poor privates but I'm talking generally).

However, as an adult, I don't feel like I've failed to achieve anything I could have done had I gone o private school. I think I would have enjoyed school more and got more out it. But that doesn't make a disadvantaged adult.

As a side note though - I do think that children of average academic ability will achieve more at your average private than at your average state.

Are their interior monologues richer in reference than yours?

How on earth would you know?!

Thank you for answering so carefully.

Though I wonder if it really is at all possible to separate "education" from "experience"?

Amber I know it was an incredibly poncey question. But I know what I meant. And I was asking manic about people she presumably knew well over a long period of time. I'm sure she could extrapolate, from their conversation, what might have been going on occasionally behind their eyes.

Years ago I had an acquaintance who, at the age of 25, had never read a novel. I genuinely struggled to understand how she managed to stumble from one day to the next with, to my mind, absolutely nothing in her head.