Is anyone else waiting for 11+ results?

[rollonthesummer]

6 days to go and starting to get anxious...!

LaQueen - if your DD2 is that good at maths why wasn't she working at that level at school? I can understand, up to a point, doing VR practice. But maths? If a child is good at maths they will be working at their level at school. Our primary was in special measures but they still managed to teach the good at maths kids to their level. I find it hard to believe that better (ie not in special measures) schools don't do this...

If a child is good at maths they will be working at their level at school.

I know for an absolute fact that no, they won't neccesarily be working at a level appropriate to their ability. It very much depends on the school, and how geared up they are to differentiation.

Rollinthesummer we don't have primary and secondary but first, middle and upper. So DS is in the second of four years at middle school .

The Grammar is in a different LEA but traditionally children from DS' s school do get in. They have have switched from 3 tier to two tier recently. Children in catchment who get required mark get in then remainder of spaces go to out of catchment children with highest scores.

DH'S year lost 24 children (boys and girls) when she was at middle school 5 years ago so it is quite disruptive. This year we counted 9 boys from DS' s school so fewer have gone in for it and some of the ones who said a couple if years ago who said they would, decided not to.

This is due in a large part to new Head at Middle and Upper Schools who are trying hard to keep the higher achieving pupils. My friend's DD is at 6th form at Upper and they really went for it at the recent open day pulling out all the stops, knowing that if year 8 parents say how impressed they were it filters down to year 6 parents, some of whom apparently went to look anyway so they could compare to the Grammar. Middle school are also making changes so it is a two prong thing from the two schools.

So a different situation to most places and illustrates yet another regional difference in systems.

*necessarily

MrsMcRuff I don't think it's inverse snobbery. In my case, I think it is undermining the principle of the 11+ to force feed kids who aren't really at the level the 11+ is designed to 'catch' - and then a tutoring arms race begins, which leaves parents on low/middling incomes with very bright kids assuming their kids have no chance, because they haven't been tutored, and thus not putting them in for the exam. They don't realise that in fact a lot of the tutoring is done by oarents with kids who aren't actuallly at the required level desperately trying to force their kids up to that level (briefly) to pass the exam - but their innate ability probably isn't as high as that of the kids whose parents assumed they wouldn't get in because they weren't tutored. This idea that kids need tutoring because they haven't covered all the curriculum is extremely bogus - certainly in maths the bright kids will have covered the curriculum perhaps as long ago as Y4.

mrsmcruff for a child who is above L6 that's true. IME that is not true for kids L6 and below. Schools want kids to do as well as possible in the SATS. They don't hold them back until they reach L6 (after that it's a whole different story, I grant you). I am aware that lots of parents think their kids are being held back but IME this doesn't actually happen (till you hit the L6 ceiling). It was worse in the days when the ceiling was L5 obviously. :(

This idea that kids need tutoring because they haven't covered all the curriculum is extremely bogus - certainly in maths the bright kids will have covered the curriculum perhaps as long ago as Y4.

I'm sorry, but that is absolute rubbish! Are your dc in the state system?

MrsMcRuff, the reality in my area is that children are being routinely tutored from Y3 for the 11+, and put in for multiple entrance exams. I've seen children (and parents) in tears over the sheer pressure of it all. Schools know people are using tutors, so they make the exam harder to compensate, which just makes it even harder for untutored children to get in.

To get your astonishing assertion clear, Rabbit. What you're saying is that bright children in a state primary will have covered the entire KS2 syllabus by the end of Year 4? (That's what you need to be able to answer all the maths questions in an 11+ exam).

Just at your complete ignorance of how the state system works!
It's not a matter of holding them back. They simply don't get taught the whole syllabus until well after the 11+ takes place.

Schools know people are using tutors, so they make the exam harder to compensate, which just makes it even harder for untutored children to get in.

But I would repeat how, when you are taking an exam which is syllabus based, are you supposed to go in cold, without having been taught all the stuff you need to know? We don't normally expect this of our dc.

If the grammar schools set an 11+ exam which is pitched at a level of knowledge (of the whole KS2 syllabus), which most state school pupils will not have by the time they take the exam, what would you have those children do?

Mrsmcruff yes my DC are all in the state system. Two of them are at a SS. I said the brightest children - the ones the 11+ is trying to reach (as opposed to the wealthy hot housed ones) will be working at L6 by the end of Y5. Some of the very brightest ones will be working at L6 by the beginning of Y5. Certainly in maths.

this insistence that tutoring is necessary for the 11+ is as I said completely bogus. It's also wrongheaded. It's designed to create a closed shop - preserving grammar school places for those who can afford to try and give their kids a leg up rather than for the kids who actually merit those places based on their academic achievement on a playing field that is level financially (obviously it's not level in absolute terms because not all kids develop at the same pace and the whole idea of differentiated education is based on the premise that some kids have skills in some areas which not everyone has). I can see why people are so anti grammar schools, to be honest (although I still believe they are necessary and overall a Good Thing). The tutoring arms race and the attitudes of entitlement that one reads in some of these 11+ threads are genuinely astounding.

Perhaps they could pitch the exam at a level that state school children will have encountered, or have all children take one 11+ exam in proper exam conditions in each school's nearest grammar school.
I understand that the original 11+ format was scrapped because teachers were cheating to get more pupils to grammars, but the current system of tutoring "buying" places at grammars is no fairer.

"certainly in maths the bright kids will have covered the curriculum perhaps as long ago as Y4."

A super selective child might. But most grammar schools arn't superselective. And many children headed for level 5s most definitely won't have covered the maths necessary to answer all the 11+ maths paper by September of year 6.

Mrsmcruff given that I have 3 DCs in the state system, 2 of whom have taken and passed the 11+ without any need for the sort of tutoring being described here I think it's not me who is ignorant about the state system. I also have several friends and relatives who teach in state schools around the country (both selective and non selective, primary and secondary). A lot of parents, especially those encountering the 11+ for the first time, get incredibly het up about it and sadly are exposed to a huge amount of misinformation (not all of it motive free). It's a great shame.

Hak - do you think the kent system works? I know you don't. In a 25% area, obviously there are unlikely to be 25% of all kids at L6 even by the end of Y6. And so the test will be designed to scoop up the 25% that exists - so, mainly L5 kids. Given that, in Kent (or anywhere else actually) 25% of all kids don't actually get L6 at the end of Y6, what exactly is the point of the desperate tutoring around 11+ time? It seems to me the point is to act as a disincentive for the kids who should be going to the grammars but who are put off (or whose parents are put off) by the received wisdom that tutoring is a sine qua non. There is one thing that LaQueen said that I do agree with (even a broken clock is right twice a day) - tutoring doesn't actually make people cleverer. If a child isn't actually a L5 or L6 performer, tutoring them on that work won't actually magically make them good at maths. They will probably get exactly the same marks they would have done without the tutoring. Practice certainly can help with speed and exam technique but it won't increase ability. Those kids might give their wrong answers more quickly, that's all. All the tutoring culture achieves is to place a (mental) barrier in the path of those who can't afford it. Which seems to suit some people. It's very sad.

Yes, waiting here too - pooing my pants frankly. Same exam as you I think rollon.

If he has not passed, we will possibly go private but this is a massive financial decision for us, we would consider moving house etc. If he's passed, life is simple! So the weekend will either end a load of worry or start a massive load of worry. I am not sleeping too well!

It doesn't help that the most of the people I've spoken to seemed to find it pretty easy and everyone finished the paper, so it is very hard to tell if DS did well or not, did he do better than the next person, who knows?

Fingers crossed for all the DC.

But in Kent you don't need to be at level 6 to pass the 11+. You do, however, have to know more maths than you will know in September of year 6- even if you are going to leave primary on level 5. No, I don't think the Kent- or any other 25/75 system - works. But I don't think you ought to be giving out misinformation about it, either.

As far as I can tell, the Southend CSSE papers this year did cover pretty much what you'd expect to be covered in a state school actually, they didn't push the maths to things I know DS has covered that are L5/6 work such as the triangle stuff or nth term.

Oh, I'm torn here - I would like to join a supportive thread for those who are waiting for 11+ results. Ours come next Friday. However, I've seen so many of these threads derailed by posters with their own agendas and that particular style of ire that grammar schools seem to provoke in some people. We are very hopeful in our house, and I imagine DS will be going to his chosen grammar in September. That's how I work though - I tend to imagine and hope and expect for the best, and if that doesn't turn out to be the case, then I'll deal with that as and when. I don't think there's anything to be read into LaQ saying that her DD will be going to grammar come september. Good luck to everyone's DCs waiting for results

And I do actually think you can be tutored for VR and non VR. Particularly Non VR. I was hopeless at many of them til my dd showed me how they worked.

Mrsmcruff yes my DC are all in the state system. Two of them are at a SS. I said the brightest children - the ones the 11+ is trying to reach (as opposed to the wealthy hot housed ones) will be working at L6 by the end of Y5. Some of the very brightest ones will be working at L6 by the beginning of Y5. Certainly in maths.

No, they won't. Well, you tell me they will in your area. I don't know where you are, but there must be a huge variation in state primaries countrywide, if this is what passes for normality in your area. I think you probably don't realise how unusual this is in the state system. There are some very bright children at my ds's large primary school, most of whom could probably pass the VR and English paper with minimal familiarisation, but they would be struggling with the maths paper, because the school does not differentiate effectively in maths until Year 6, (where the 'top table' will be heading for L6) and most certainly does not teach the year 6 syllabus below year 6.

given that I have 3 DCs in the state system, 2 of whom have taken and passed the 11+ without any need for the sort of tutoring being described here

Just out of interest, what was the format of the 11+ taken by your dc, in terms of VR, NVR, maths etc?

Hak I'm not giving out misinformation. I'm pointing out that if your child isn't actually performing at the required level, then tutoring isn't going to magically make them better at maths. And the SATS results in the 25% counties bear that out. And primary schools do accelerate the brightest kids, that is a fact. If your kids haven't been accelerated then, there is probably a reason for that. The tutoring arms race is absolutely wrong and shouldn't be supported. I do think there is an argument for practising VR (IME and with my kids, had they had to do NVR they wouldn't have done the 11+ so I really don't know whether practice can help with that - certainly wouldn't for us). But maths and English? No. If your child isn't at the level then that's what it is. Tutoring won't help. And a child who is that good but can't afford tutoring shouldn't be put off (or their parents shouldn't be out off) just because of that.