Would you call this RE or worship?

[whatsthemattermaryjane]

Before I take the story further please understand that yes, this is a CofE school, but that we live in one of the rural areas where the only schools are church schools. We did not therefore 'choose' this school the way parents in more urban areas might - it simply is the school to which village children go. Next school is 5 miles, also CofE. Next school after that, another 7 miles, also CofE...

So, my point. Every week, along with daily short class assemblies and prayers, and a weekly whole school assembly, there is a 'lesson' called 'Open The Book'. This lesson is taught by the vicar, who reads a Bible story to the children and then they must act the story out. The children are told that this is a true story that they are re-enacting. This happens every week all through the year for all age groups, always led by the vicar and always a Bible story.

Mumsnetters, in your opinions, is this Religious Education, or is it an act of worship?

I'm not at all keen on basically telling my dc that they should listen to & trust Miss/Sir when it comes to numeracy, literacy, & every other class subject, BUT they should interpret with a pinch of salt this whole big chunk of lessons where peculiar & unsubstantiated assertions are presented, by the same teacher, as as objectively 'true' as '2+2=4'.

I would agree with this almost entirely. I have had to tell my DC not to trust anything their teachers say but to check everything - from 2+2 =4 to "Jesus never existed and its made up, just like the tooth fairy".

Since there is as much evidence for the existence of a Jewish preacher called Jesus as their is for the existence of Julius Ceasar , I draw al line. Although I expect many here would be happy for their DC to be taught that Jesus is like the tooth fairly a made up story, I doubt they would be happy if the same was said of Julius Ceasar or even Robert the Bruce.

Whether Jesus was "Son of God" may be a different matter. That is an opinion. Just as saying Robert the Bruce as the saviour of Scotland. Robert the Bruce may well have just as easily been described as a blood thirsty psychopath.

Similarly, when my DC is told by a teacher ( or teachers repeatedly) that sex is something you do when " it feels right" in a relationship, I draw a line. NO! Sex is not alreight in a relationship when it " feels right". There is a legal age for sexual intercourse by coinsent. Its 16. Anything under that is statutory rape.

I tell my DC now to check everything. If they think the teacher is wrong, to show it to me. Then if I think it is wrong, I will say something. I am not Mrs Popular but it has to be. I have corrected everything from teachers spelling ( and I am no expert on that because my own education lacked sorrowfully on SPAG) to maths, to RE and sex education and the Law.

For those who like worshipping and indoctrination of religious beliefs, why not set up a place where you can go with your children once or twice a week to practice those ideals with like-minded souls? Maybe call it a church or something. School assemblies could then still concentrate on 'political agendas' like anti-bullying, tolerance, respect, friendship, community etc but without feeling the need to refer to god.

School assemblies could then still concentrate on 'political agendas' like anti-bullying, tolerance, respect, friendship, community etc but without feeling the need to refer to god

I would be happy as long as I had the same right as aparent I currently do and I can withdraw my child from such assemblies.

Why would you want to withdraw your child from assemblies like those? Do you fundamentally disagree with any of those concepts?

Those ideas are all important in building the community that is the school.

Why would you want to withdraw your child from assemblies like those? Do you fundamentally disagree with any of those concepts?

I disagree with the way they are implimented , at least in what I have seen of them.
So, yes I disagree with them.

Pico2 - the question is, why should I not be allowed to disagree and withdraw my child?

My DC went to a catholic school (DS just left Y11). There is fairly large muslim community not far away and so a large number attend the school. The local catchment school is no better or no worse so that is not the reason for choosing although the catchment is further but walkable.
I asked him how many pupils do not attend mass. He reckons nobody. They just don't go up for communion. Maybe some of this is ignorance that parents don't know they can keep the children.
There are optional weekly masses at lunchtime which are optional. When I say mass I mean the one because it start/end of term or a feat day

I really don't think that many people would disagree with "anti-bullying, tolerance, respect, friendship, community". I have no idea how these things are implemented in your local school to make you wish to withdraw your child. Do you really disagree with these concepts?

How have you seen those concepts implemented, sclerderabbey?

Having thought deeply about this issue it is obvious you have good intelligence. Let you child be exposed to different ideas and I'm sure as they grow up you will be able to have meaningful discussions and lo and behold let them make their own minds up

TBH sclerderabbey and given the posts on the thread I would say it is not OP who is out of step with the average but you. Your beliefs, what you see as of value and not, who should be "allowed" to attend which schools and so on are out of step with majority UK society, even most of the ostensibly religious ones.

As such I would say that if anyone should be starting a new school to cater to non-average needs, it should be you, not the OP.

We are not able to start a new school, what a strange idea! This is a tiny village, the school is also small (less than 60 children). There would be no need for a new school and also no way of making it viable, the school that is here already only survives by becoming a partnership with other similarly small schools locally (so sharing a head and some facilities etc). And also - we work! When do we have time for starting a school? I only asked a question, I can question things without being in a position to leap up and make a whole new alternative, can't I?

How have you seen those concepts implemented, sclerderabbey?

Anti bullying - a perr buddy system for bullied children which was open for volunteers to help their peers who feltbullied .It was " manned" by the worst bullies. My Dc came and tole me about it. When Iasked the school told me that this was about giving those who had been bullies a second chance to make good. My Dc and others said the bullies used it as a means of ensuring no one complained about them.

Respect and tolerance? Community? All went out of the window with that one policy .

But still no one has explained why I should not have the right to remove my DC from such assemblies and lessons if I so wish. After all, its no different to having the right of withdrawal from a religious agenda is it?

Do you really disagree with these concepts?

I have already answered this question. Why do you need to ask again?

TBH sclerderabbey and given the posts on the thread I would say it is not OP who is out of step with the average but you

I do not see how being out of step with the average is relevent here.

Many parents remove DC from religious and other lessons for non average reasons. I see no reason why my desire to remove a DC from a more secular agenda should need to be questioned.

It should be a choice. Just as the average MN parent wants a secular curriculum I wish not to engage in that. What is wrong with my being able to have that choice?

A parent with a childin a school which has a religious denomination has the option to remove their DC. There is no difference.

I think I would raise concerns over the true bit and after that make a decision. You may upset your DC by removing them from these sessions so you need to consider this as well. At the end of the day they won't be at a C of E school forever - from I can gather from where i live is there will be a catchment secondary school the DC can go to that isn't C of E

As such I would say that if anyone should be starting a new school to cater to non-average needs, it should be you, not the OP

I did say in a post above, I am in the process of finding another school.

sclerderabby because community schools which are paid for by the taxpayer need to cater to the average/standard in terms of ethos etc

You also have the option to remove your child you can home educate them, you can have them educated privately, you can open a new school (as you suggested others should have to do upthread).

Can you not see why state schools should not and cannot cater to minority viewpoints held by a small number of people?

op count yourself lucky. Faith schools do waaay better than others.

We are not able to start a new school, what a strange idea! This is a tiny village, the school is also small (less than 60 children)

I too live in a village ( in fact so small its classed as a Hamlet) with a C of E aided school. Parents drive from miles around to bring their DC into this school. It is considered as outstanding. I doubt if any of them are particularly religious ( any more than they were when my DC was there.) but none ever complain about the morning assemblies etc. The school was over subscribed. As the HT there always said ,this is a C of E school , anyone who does not want that can make a choice to not stay here or to remove their children from religious education.

I am looking to remove my DC from the local state secondary school. It will mean a long drive, but that is what it takes if you have the courage of your convictions, no matter what those convictions may be.

Anotherchapter - not all faith schools do better. The OP said earlier that this one has been rated as requiring improvement by Ofsted.

And in any case many of the faith schools that produce amazing results do so by stealth selection - requiring regular church attendance and other evidence of supporting the church (helping run Sunday schools, flower arranging etc) is a good way of selecting better off and more dedicated parents compared to schools which have no entry requirements. See the Fair Admissions campaign.

sclerderabby because community schools which are paid for by the taxpayer need to cater to the average/standard in terms of ethos etc

Church Schools are voluntary Aided by the religious denomination they hold claim to. That means part of the money supporting that school comes from the church. Therefore they are also entitled to see their curriculum supported.

There are many schools which are not religiously endowed. Tax payers can choose one of those quite easily. There are far more than there are C of E schools.

You also have the option to remove your child you can home educate them, you can have them educated privately, you can open a new school (as you suggested others should have to do upthread)

As indeed I will be doing when my DC leaves the local state secondary school. I have suggested nothing to the Op that I am not doing myself.
What is your point then? That I am not entitled to have minority ideas? What happened to that secular tolerance there then?

"There are many schools which are not religiously endowed"

Depends entirely on where you live.

And yes you suggested that only people with faith be allowed to attend faith schools, and everyone else should open their own schools. Which is a preposterous idea in a state system where the aim is to educate the nation's children. Not to provide bespoke schooling to any and all varieties of faiths beliefs etc with wildly varying curriculums and classes sometimes numbering 1.

sclerdarabbey - in voluntary aided schools, the only funding that the church provides is up to 10% of the budget for capital works/building repairs. All the staff salaries and general running costs of the schools, as well as the other 90% per cent of the building repairs etc, are paid for by the state. Many CofE schools are voluntary controlled rather than voluntary aided, which means that 100% of all costs are paid for by tax payers. See details of what the different statuses involve here.

I really don't see why a 10% contribution to building costs should really entitle the church to exclude large numbers of children from a state-funded education because of their parents' religious practice or beliefs. Maybe 10% of places could be reserved for churchgoers' children, rather than 100%, as in many schools.

And in many areas, parents have no choice but to send their children to church schools - being a non-believer gives you no priority in admissions for non-faith schools, while being CofE/Catholic gives you priority for large numbers of state-funded schools.

So a church-going family living next to a community school, but within a few miles of a voluntary aided church school, has a free choice of both. But a non-believing family living next door to the church school with religious entry requirements, and whose closest community school is more than a mile away, will probably get a place at neither, and will have to travel miles to the next available school, which may be a less-popular church school anyway. How is that fair?