Would you call this RE or worship?

[whatsthemattermaryjane]

Before I take the story further please understand that yes, this is a CofE school, but that we live in one of the rural areas where the only schools are church schools. We did not therefore 'choose' this school the way parents in more urban areas might - it simply is the school to which village children go. Next school is 5 miles, also CofE. Next school after that, another 7 miles, also CofE...

So, my point. Every week, along with daily short class assemblies and prayers, and a weekly whole school assembly, there is a 'lesson' called 'Open The Book'. This lesson is taught by the vicar, who reads a Bible story to the children and then they must act the story out. The children are told that this is a true story that they are re-enacting. This happens every week all through the year for all age groups, always led by the vicar and always a Bible story.

Mumsnetters, in your opinions, is this Religious Education, or is it an act of worship?

I think 'Open the book' is supposed to make the stories more interesting for children. Otherwise they would just have it read to them - yawn.

There is a website. Sorry I don't know how to link but here's the address:
www.openthebook.net/home.php.

From what I can gather they are saying it satisfies the collective worship element.
However I would check the 'true' element of it - could there be some confusion in that bit.
It could be worse. My local catholic school does all the first holy communion and confirmation preparation in class so catholic or not the children go over it all together.

Not sure in what depth the primary school goes into other religions but the catholic secondary school do study other religions and they went to the local mosque.
I understand how people feels about faith schools and the only way for this to change I presume is for government to do something about. Perhaps they don't want the expense of having to buy all the schools and land as these will be owned by the the relevant faiths

I linked it without realizing

If they have been presenting the stories as "true" this seems to go against the code of practice on their website, so I would raise the issue with the school.

I am wondering if some of the children are getting confused and think the stories are true

If you wanted to withdraw your child just from this aspect of RE I would have a chat with your headteacher. It is not an all or nothing withdrawal as was suggested up thread. I have always withdrawn my children from certain aspects of RE in consultation with staff at their schools but they have continued to take part in other areas such as the Christmas play etc.

OP I went to a similar primary school back in the 80s, grew up thinking the bible stories were 'real'. It ended up putting me right off religion, as I felt it was forced on me.

That said, I loved that school and my teachers and my friends, and I loved harvest festival, carol services etc when we got to go in the church next door! I have very fond memories and I don't think it did me any harm in the big scheme of things.

Open the Book's website states "So now, thanks to OPEN THE BOOK, children in schools will have the opportunity during Collective Worship to discover all the wonder and wisdom that the Bible can offer!"

So they think it's for use in Collective Worship.

On the other hand, its intention is to help children engage with Bible stories. So I can see that it could be used in RE.

But even as a Christian, with experience of leading worship in schools, I would question why they didn't have a much wider range of activities in RE.

It's really hard for people in large towns and cities to comprehend, but the vast majority of village schools are CofE. This is what skews the results of CofE schools, but that's a whole other issue. You don't have to travel too far into the country to find there is one school per village or one school per 2 villages. Where I am, if you live in a village there is simply no choice. In fact my "village" has a school where the village used to be but nowhere near the newer (20th century) housing is. There are CofE village schools in my LA with less than 40 children in them. Other schools are miles away. The schools tend to work on catchment rather than religious observance admissions criteria. So I agree with the OP that in such circumstances the school needs it take a sensitive view on how religion is presented.

It is religious instruction by an Anglican cleric. You should simply withdraw your children from all Christian worship and instruction .

I don't intend to sound flippant but, in all seriousness, what is your stance re the Tooth Fairy and Father Christmas?

We didn't "do God" to get into our local infants (it needed council money so had to go non-denominational), but I remember being shocked by how my daughter became obsessed with Jesus for a term or 2.

If you have strong beliefs I think you just need to talk to DC.

Can't you think of it as a cultural thing, like hymn singing or carol concerts would be? Imho CofE stuff like this is one of the reasons England is one of the most secular (and tolerant) countries on earth. If they're acting it out, surely there's a drama element too?

Worship is serious, focused stuff. Kids acting out bible stories does not sound the same to me.

I think Collective worship is something we should be consigning to history, to be honest - & it's not just a faith school thing, it's a requirement in ALL schools.

I don't like the cultural weather it creates.

I'm not at all keen on basically telling my dc that they should listen to & trust Miss/Sir when it comes to numeracy, literacy, & every other class subject, BUT they should interpret with a pinch of salt this whole big chunk of lessons where peculiar & unsubstantiated assertions are presented, by the same teacher, as as objectively 'true' as '2+2=4'.

I had precisely that experience myself as a small atheist child at an RC primary, & it's a tad discombobulating - Sister So&so enthusiastically expounding on the subject of limbo for unbaptised children whilst my 7yo self quietly decided that the poor woman was obviously slightly tapped. It's undermining.

It's completely avoidable if schools adopt the RE, rather than RI, stance of 'Some people believe...'. For that matter, I have no problem at all with a teacher telling my children that 'Some people, myself included, believe...'. - so long as the possibility of dissent is allowed for!

I think you should at least raise it with the school as a concern, & discuss the possibility of withdrawing from these lessons. At the very least, it might cause them to examine ways in which they could include dc of other faiths or none - it's quite possible that no-one's ever queried it before, & they'd be receptive to having concerns raised.

When there wes littleor no education forchildren,the Church went out and set up schools for poor children to at least have some sort of education. That was based on their faith and their belief ..... " suffer little children to come to me" ( as in the Bible).

Of coursenearly all people had a belief then,and if they didnt, they would accept this anyway because it was culture.

Now I wouldbe all forthose who do not believe setting uptheir own schools ( AND PLEASE MAKE YOUR BELIEFS CLEAR) . There seems there should be many takers. But please do not hijack schools belonging to other faiths for your purposes.

Ifthere are many who agree with you ( as it appears here on MN) then getting an alternative to the local school in your village should be possible( children may well join you from around the other villages, if the views areso popular. Try it. After all, I think that is what Richard Dawkins is doing now to promotehis belief system. he has all sorts of evangelical atheistmeetings going and summer schools for kids ( just like the Church did once). Most LEA schools are "nothing". Maybe there is an alternative in a town close by?

The school being criticised here is clear on its foundation , it says
"CHURCH OF ENGLAND". Others say RC.
I would be more than happy to put my kids in a C Of E or RC school and I dont do God greatly either but I do think there are some good moral principles there. It also offends me ,despite the fact I do not do God when Jesus is put on a par with a tooth fairly.If you are going to tell your children the " truth",then maybe you need to get your own facts right first?. Dont conflate things and send your children out misinformed and ignorant.

I can see that others are more strident in their beliefs.

'Most LEA schools' aren't 'nothing' in terms of collective worship.

It's not currently possible to set up a secular school in this country, even assuming that parents wanted to abandon a good, established community school, & set up some sort of rival establishment (we aren't all Toby Young!) over one relatively minor aspect of the curriculum

The law in England and Wales provides that children at all maintained schools "shall on each school day take part in an act of collective worship". Even in schools with no religious designation, the worship must be "wholly or mainly of a Christian character" (Secular Society website).

Schools should adapt to the needs of children, not the other way around. The daily act of collective worship in no way reflects C21st practice outside of the assembly hall - which is why very many have Heads quietly abandoned it.

I've never told anyone that Jesus is on a par with the tooth fairy, mind you. It'd be a bit like comparing Alexander the Great with Puff the Magic Dragon. One's a significant historical figure who changed the shape of history & the other's a charming story for children.

But if you're going to be offended by how others choose to speak or write about Jesus, sclerderabbey, you need to understand that other people don't have to pretend to a reverence which isn't theirs, simply so that you don't have to be offended.

The law in England and Wales provides that children at all maintained schools "shall on each school day take part in an act of collective worship"

They do not. They just ignore it and no one takes any notice. So there is no need for anyone to moan that a school is following the law. There are amny schools out there who do " God" or "Religion"

I've never told anyone that Jesus is on a par with the tooth fairy, mind you. It'd be a bit like comparing Alexander the Great with Puff the Magic Dragon. One's a significant historical figure who changed the shape of history & the other's a charming story for children

Neither have I. But I have seen it written here and heard teachers in my own DC's schjool saying precisely that. It is offensive. The main offense though is that some people do not know the difference apparently ( clear here too).

They genuinely think Jesus and the tooth fairy are of the same ilk.

Further,the Op must know this,because others have said it,you have a right to withdraw your Dc from all orpart of any form of RE or worship. Similarly, you have a right to withdraw your DC from sex education.

I have withdrawn my DC from both. You can do it. Its quite easy, write a letter and tell them you are exercising your right.

As it happens I am looking for a different school also - so will soon be withdrawing my DC from the school they attend but that is by the by.

The thing is, I can 'moan' that the law on collective worship is a silly law, if I think it is, & hope to see it changed.

I'd rather have schools allowed to choose whether they think it's an appropriate activity for their student body, & to make that clear to parents. Pretty much what you were advocating in your earlier post!

I don't think it's offensive at all to think that Jesus & the tooth fairy are 'of the same ilk'. I don't agree, but I don't think it's an offensive opinion.

& even if I did, people are actually allowed to think & say things that you or I find offensive. You just get to define what offends you, & to react however you like to that - not to decide that a particular opinion or belief is inherently & universally 'offensive'!

The OP has already stated that there isn't a nearby non-denominational school that her children could go to.

As for setting up their own school. This simply isn't possible in areas where there are already enough school places. Who would fund a separate school, next door to one with space for local children?

You can withdraw your child from these lessons BUT speaking from my own experience of attending a C of E primary school and being agnostic now I still recall some of the bible stories and their positive moral teachings which I myself would not want my children to miss out on

Why set up different schools for different religious beliefs (or lack of them) - do we really want religious segregation in this country?

Surely it would be better for all state-funded schools to be open to people of all beliefs, with no worship/indoctrination, but good religious education (i.e. education about religion, not making children pray to gods they make not believe in) to promote tolerance and understanding of each other's beliefs.

do we really want religious segregation in this country?

We already have that, but the only religion that seems to cause any real conflict for the non religious and the atheist alike is Christianity.
Maybe that is becausemost other faiths with DC wholive in villages will often travel and not expect their faith school on their doorstep. Indeed even now , I think many who want a C of E or RC school travel too.

Surely it would be better for all state-funded schools to be open to people of all beliefs, with no worship/indoctrination,

Religious "indoctrination" you mean. There is always indoctrination. It worries me more what they will fill the obvious void with if the current assembly style is removed. My experience is that schools who have largely ignored the "broadly Christian" bit are filling assemblies etc. with anti bullying and mindlessness mindfulness etc. or any other flavour of the month polictical agenda. They then preach these as the new gospel.

Maybe you are fine with that but I am not. WhilstI agree and accept not all have faith, at least those who do not know what they think and largely the so called "indoctrination has been counter productive or ineffective.. With these new brainwashing agenda's we do not know what effect they may have

I completely agree with exexpat that segregating children by faith at school is something we should be actively trying to avoid, not encourage. It's ridiculous to suggest that parents who aren't happy with their local school should simply set up another - like it's that simple . But even if it were that simple, is it really a good thing to have children growing up in their own little bubble, not mixing with people from families with different views from their own? Surely the better answer is for all schools to be secular?

Anti-bullying messages are a 'flavour of the month political agenda'? Right....

I see no evidence of your implication, sclerderabbey, that without Christianity we'd all descend into some sort of morally relativist abyss. I believe most people have a remarkably similar ser of moral values, religious or not.