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Original poster

Would you call this RE or worship?

140 replies

whatsthemattermaryjane · 12/09/2014 20:54

Before I take the story further please understand that yes, this is a CofE school, but that we live in one of the rural areas where the only schools are church schools. We did not therefore 'choose' this school the way parents in more urban areas might - it simply is the school to which village children go. Next school is 5 miles, also CofE. Next school after that, another 7 miles, also CofE...

So, my point. Every week, along with daily short class assemblies and prayers, and a weekly whole school assembly, there is a 'lesson' called 'Open The Book'. This lesson is taught by the vicar, who reads a Bible story to the children and then they must act the story out. The children are told that this is a true story that they are re-enacting. This happens every week all through the year for all age groups, always led by the vicar and always a Bible story.

Mumsnetters, in your opinions, is this Religious Education, or is it an act of worship?

OP posts:
zipzap · 12/09/2014 22:48

Maybe you could ask the teacher to explain to your ds that it's not a true story in the same way that he's learnt about the Romans or the rainforest or the great fire of London.

If s/he baulks at that, maybe ask her to explain that 'true' stories in the bible have been made up a long time ago, maybe based on a real event but there's no guarantee, or based on a real 'generic' event like a wedding or funeral but not a specific one - and that they are all basically stories that are made up to illustrate what christians believe to be true things like being nice to each other, not mudering or stealing, being a good host etc (can you tell my re lessons were a very long time ago?!).

I think it is worth putting the teacher on the spot because they should be aware of when dc are taking these things too literally, particularly when parents don't agree with the views being touted as fact when they're not. Doubly so in a village primary when there is no other choice but a church school to go to and to withdraw from collective worship means missing out on all the school bits of assemblies as well as the religious bits.

Do you know what other parents think of these sessions? It might be that if you can get a group together that's big enough that don't want their children to attend the vicar led session they might do something else for them.

It might be that if he is running a whole school session that the teachers like it because a significant number of them can sneak off to do something else with any hassle from the dc, rather than liking it for a religious reason Grin

Strangely I do think that all schools/classes should do a nativity play each year but I wouldn't want them acting out stories every week.

SevenZarkSeven · 12/09/2014 22:56

"The children are told that this is a true story that they are re-enacting. "

That would really bother me, and seems quite extreme.

Even many practicing religious people don't believe that all the stories in the bible are literal fact.

SevenZarkSeven · 12/09/2014 22:58

And yes I would class it as, not exactly worship, but strong indoctrination in the christian faith.

Which seems a little off given there are no alternative schools!

Are there any children of other faiths at the school / what do they do?

I am against religious worship / indoctrination as a part of schooling full stop though. To nail my colours to the mast as it were.

ChillySundays · 12/09/2014 23:19

I may have a simplistic view but if people move into a catchment because the schools are good then why if people have an objection to going to a faith school shouldn't they have been looking at where they are living years ago. These schools have been faith school for years they haven't suddenly changed.

exexpat · 12/09/2014 23:30

Chilly- I don't think the OP said anything about moving into a catchment area because this school was good - it is just the local school where they live and there is no non-faith alternative for miles around. In many parts of the country it really is not possible to avoid sending your child to a church school.

Yes, there have always been church schools, but they are now funded by the state, and the religious beliefs of the population (who are paying for the schools with their taxes) have changed - regular church goers are now in a tiny minority in the UK, outnumbered by people who have no religion or a religion other than CofE, but the education system has not changed to keep up with that.

NameChangerNewDanger · 12/09/2014 23:32

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TheSameBoat · 12/09/2014 23:41

Drives me nuts. Had this problem with DS at his old school. And you are made to feel a troublemaker if you say anything. Especially if you don't have another faith but are atheist. It's as if they think you're just doing it to be awkward.

LatteLoverLovesLattes · 12/09/2014 23:44

Yes chilie you are right, it is a simplistic view. Schools are not the only reason people live where they do.

Tommy · 12/09/2014 23:47

with all due respect to you, you did "choose " this school by choosing to live in a rural are with no other schools. It is a CofE school.
By all means, withdraw your child but, as someone else has pointed out, that would men withdrawing them from a lot of "cultural" events too.

autumnboys · 12/09/2014 23:48

Having had some experience of OTB, I would say it's an act of worship.

pieceofpurplesky · 12/09/2014 23:51

It's simple really - just tell DC that some people believe the bible stories and some people don't, but that the stories have a good message.
They are at a C of E school - connection to the church is part of that.

SevenZarkSeven · 12/09/2014 23:52

Not really getting this idea that people must uproot their lives move jobs away from where they have friends family etc simply because they don't want their child to be indoctrinated in a religion they don't believe in at a state school.

Seems an extreme thing to say "well you have a choice" over.

Moving is inordinately expensive and there are numerous reasons people live in a certain place. It's not like choosing a yogurt or something.

I think that's a silly comment really.

exexpat · 12/09/2014 23:54

Tommy - why, in the 21st century, should living outside a large city mean that you have no choice but to subject your child to state-funded religious indoctrination in school?

In fact the situation is no better in some cities either. Of the five primary schools within walking distance of my house in a large city, three are CofE, one is Catholic and only one has no church ties - but of course that one is still legally obliged to carry out a daily act of worship of a broadly Christian nature.

There is no escaping religion in state schools, whether you are in the countryside or an urban area. The only advantage of an urban area is that the OP might have a choice of a school where they are a bit less enthusiastic about carrying out the state-imposed worship bit.

Pico2 · 12/09/2014 23:58

Why should some parts if the country be 'reserved for CoE people only' by virtue of providing faith-based education? What is meant to happen to people who live in such an area, are brought up CoE but lose their faith and would prefer non-faith education for their children? Should they be forced to move away? Schools that are inclusive and serve the community should serve the whole community, not just those that agree with one faith.

We live in a rural area and did actually reject some villages when house hunting due to there only being faith schools. But we were lucky that we had the resources to make that decision and that the area had a mix of faith and non-faith schools in the various villages.

I find it sad that diversity of believe is effectively discouraged in some areas in this way and that potentially goes hand-in-hand with ethnic and other forms of diversity.

LucyBabs · 13/09/2014 00:05

op My dd attends a catholic school. Dp and I are lapsed Catholics I tell dd that yes the school she attends preaches about Jesus and the virgin Mary but me and Daddy don't believe in a god. I have to admit its tough when I hear they say prayers thanking god for their food and too bless the hands that made the food. It brings back memories of how religion was rammed down our throats as young children.

I have yet to bring it up with the school as it IS a catholic school and I don't want to exclude my dd. How can I stop her from being in class as they say prayers at 10am, 12pm and home time?!

Both my dc are not christened. DD got into this school because we are in the catchment area its an excellent school but if we lived outside the area and dd not being christened she would not have had a look in.

So very frustrating and typical catholic Ireland!

Original poster
whatsthemattermaryjane · 13/09/2014 08:08

I didn't move into the catchment area for the good schools, we moved here as DH got a job here and it is also near to his elderly parents. It's not the case that all faith schools are a cut above the non faith schools though I know this tends to be the case in towns and cities. But actually this school was graded as needing improvement by Ofsted last year! I am happy enough with the teaching generally and with the staff but not so happy with this sessions. It seems very close to indoctrination as other posters put it. I will speak to the staff. I just posted here to yet a feel for what others would class this as, because I think they treat it as a lesson not as worship.

OP posts:
diddlediddledumpling · 13/09/2014 08:45

my dc don't attend a church school, but there is plenty of this nevertheless.
It used to bother me, particularly when my 4yo was taught about the crucifixion coming up to Easter (although my problem was more about the horror of that) but now he's 8 I realise it has had little impact on him. It's not brainwashing, it's just religious instruction. He knows his parents don't believe in God, and he says he doesn't either, but i know he might change his mind (several times, as I did) as he grows up. All fine.
A lot of our traditions in this country have Christian origins and it does no harm to learn about bible stories, in my opinion. I'm glad I went to Sunday School as a child.

ChillySundays · 13/09/2014 10:01

I didn't mean the OP had moved into catchment for the school what I meant was if people move into a catchment for schools you can also move out of catchment if you are not happy.

Pico2 · 13/09/2014 10:11

Moving is expensive, thousands of pounds either in stamp duty and legal costs or to save up for a deposit and first month's rent. Not to mention the hassle of being further from work and elderly parents. Why should the OP have to move to access a less religious education? Do we really want to create segregated areas of the country?

MehsMum · 13/09/2014 10:14

I'm an irregular churchgoer and I can see your point. I'd class it as 'evangelism' rather than 'worship' if they're being told it's a true story, and 'RE' if they're acting out it out and being taught about Christianity in that way.

I'd check with the school if the children really are told that these stories are literally true. There is definitely truth in some of them - exile to Babylon, for example - but others clearly not. If my DC had been told it was all 100% true at primary school, I'd have been busy contradicting it at home...

MollyBdenum · 13/09/2014 10:15

In the same way that most people can't afford to move house to the catchment area of an outstanding school, they can't move to the catchment of a non church school.

RabbitOfNegativeEuphoria · 13/09/2014 13:48

It's not worship. Worship is praying. It's not RE either. It sounds like a mixture of drama and indoctrination and it doesn't have a place in either RE or worship. Acting out an (OT?) scene is really neither. Christians don't even believe the OT is all 'true' (although some of it has its roots in oral history). The bible - the whole of it - is one of the key works of literature in western civilization and includes many messages that anyone can get behind, atheists and believers alike, though - so you could look at these 'lessons' like that? If it would make you feel better? I went to church schools and we never did anything like this and my kids also went to a church primary (and one of them is at a CofE secondary) and none of them did anything like this either.

sclerderabbey · 13/09/2014 16:34

"The children are told that this is a true story that they are re-enacting. "

What is truth? , said Pilate.

Ifthey are enacting parables then within the Bible these are considered stories anyway, so I see no problem.

If they are enacting the accounts of the gospels concerning the life of Jesus, again this is a " truth" in a C of E tradition and so I would also ask, as did Pilate "What is truth?"

I will as Pilate did,walk away before you bother to answer .

There is no guilt. This is not about " fact".

HermioneWeasley · 13/09/2014 16:46

State funded faith schools boil my piss, especially when there's no alternative

It is not worship, it's indoctrination. You need to counteract at home

donkir · 13/09/2014 17:12

I chose to send my son to the local catholic school as it was the best in our area. He prayed in the morning, lunch and home time.
He would come home and ask questions and I would answer as best I could. I even learnt to read the bible with the help of some very lovely JWs that would visit my house.
He is now 12 and doesn't believe in anything anymore. He made that choice himself and I'm proud that I let him gather the info he felt he needed to make an informed decision.