Will your child be starting worship this September?

[LichtenA]

Christian worship has been compulsory in our state schools since 1944. The law is widely ignored but can cause problems for parents, pupils and even teachers where it is enforced.

As part of their state education, this September, you child could be compelled to participate in Christian worship to a God they may have little or no concept of.

You can sign the petition to end compulsory worship in schools.

I presume a "proper" religious school is one which is openly religious rather than a community school which is religious but pretends not to be which is pretty much the status quo for state education at present.

A "good foundation" is teaching children to stone adulterers, that they musn't eat shellfish etc because I assume the "proper" religious schools don't pick and choose the bits of the bible they like.

Children of humanists are taught to be unruly and immoral because they aren't going to hell so whats the point of behaving if God isn't waving a bit stick at you? Escape those of us who teach that we beleive in human beings and that if human chooses to do the right thing more often than they choose to do the wrong thing that the world will be a better place for everyone to live even if you don;t benefit in the short run. Whoever said upthread that it was difficult to run a good humanist assembly - really it isn't complicated. Unless you can;t think of a reason to behave kindly and support your fellow being for any reason other than god won't like it if you don;t.

Apologies if your children are a proper muslim school - I can look up the inconsistencies in that religion later if its more relevant.

Except those of us...

You presume a lot Kewcumber. Like many here.

You also presume too much about the "goodness" of the nature nature of human beings I think there too.

Unless you can;t think of a reason to behave kindly and support your fellow being for any reason other than god won't like it if you don;t

I am stuggling with that right now.
I cannot in this brutish and short life we have, think of anything to commend humanity in its redness in tooth and claw ( and word and deed).

Teaching children about a variety of religions is one thing: forced religious worship in a democratic society is something quite different. So I have signed the petition.
However, I have worked in several state primary schools and have never seen worship in any of them!

wuzzup

Unless you live in Gaza or Syria right now, I'm puzzled as to why you would describe life as "brutish and short"?

Are you sure you're on the right thread - or even the right forum?

I will be honest.

I do not want my DC to be taught about " all religions" . I do not think such thingsare a good idea because they become confused and are never secure in their knowledge of any belief in my experience.

They have no sense of rules, boundaries or developing any real sense of right or wrong is difficult because our society has constantly changing boundaries . We as individuals play the ya/boo sucks game and our DC pikc that up.
They seem to lean anything is Ok until you are told its wrong and even then, just make sure you arenot caught the next time.

Children do need rules - at least until they are old enough and have developed enough experience and cognitive skill to critcally assess situations.

Children are very cruel ( as are adults) left to themselves. Relying on the innate goodness of people doesnt help. People are selfish, selfserving and materialistic. Thats in the nature of evolution and humans are no more than the product of that in themselves really. There have been more people killed by Atheism in a hundered years than were killed in two millenia by Christianity. Not that I am suggesting Christianity is the "one" religion. Just that children shoulds start with ONE religion. I would prefer a religion with its sense of higherauthority than a humanism which relies on humanity and science - like evolution, red in tooth and claw and violent and vicious by nature. Most wars are over land and money, and always have been, even many of those in the name of a religion.

I can see where that is leading now and I am certain I do not like it.

I also know that research clearly shows that people who hold a traditional faith are emotionally more stable , less likely to have emotional difficulties and are lesslikely to commit suicide. That may well be because religion often has a sense of community and promotes helping behaviour ( even if it isnt good for the person who is doing the helping in the evolutionary and human way of things) Children bought up in faith move out to explore spirituality more positvely than those who have no rock to start from. Spirituality without a religious basis also seems to be a recipe for mental health problems according to MIND.

Clearly SuberbanRhonda, your religious and philosophical background is lacking. Suggest your read Hobbes and Darwin.

Gaza is a land war. ISIS are fighting over land. Most current unrest anywhere in the world is over land and wealth, not religion and never really has been. Often it is tribal - along social class lines ( wealth, ownership of land and power and social class go together (and often too social class and a relgious grouping go together - hence it is often confused).

wazzup:
"Surely that is the equivelant of concluding itsspring because I have seen a swallow outside?"

No. You're making a mistake. I'll try to explain.

The claim I made was that 'Neither school assembly nor acts of worship are necessary for children's development.' To show that something isn't necessary, all you need do is give a single counter-example, thereby proving that it's not impossible. That's what I did. (My children being the counter-example.)

Look. Suppose someone says that in order for something to be a swan it's necessary that it be white. All you need to do is show them a black swan - one will do - then you'll have shown them that being white isn't necessary for being a swan. If it's possible to be a swan and not be white, being white isn't necessary for being a swan.

My contention - that assembly/worship isn't necessary for growing up decent - is proved by there being someone who grew up decent without assembly/worship. That's because, as with the swan case, the example shows it's possible to grow up decent without being exposed to assembly/worship.

Can you see that now? Just logic, really.

As for your other question, 'And who says your DC have turned out OK?', that would be a reasonable thing to ask in many contexts. But, this being the internet, and you not knowing my DCs, you'll have to take my word for it. If I could give more information without outing them/myself, maybe I would. But I can't.

Of course I might be mistaken. Or, from where you sit, I could be lying in my teeth. I'm pretty sure I'm not mistaken. I've been around long enough, seen enough, to back my judgement on this. And I'm not lying.

As for your, 'How do we know anything? From what I can tell DC tell their parents very little these days,' I think that's a bit sad. My own DC tell their parents lots. Not everything, of course. That would be weird and dysfunctional. I'm sure they have secrets from me and DP. But they tell us many things about their life, discuss choices with us, let us know when things go wrong, ask advice in difficult situations, offer us support when they think we need it ... . All the things you'd want from grown-up children, really.

My DCs were brought up without what I see as religious nonsense impinging on their lives as children at all. Does that show that bringing up children without religion is bound to be a success? No, of course not. That my children are so successful as people in all the ways I've said, though, does show that thrusting religious nonsense on children isn't necessarily the way to go. So, the final conclusion (which, yes, by now we do know to be true!) ... we don't need to push religion in our schools in any shape manner or form.

[A bit long, sorry. Well done, wazzup, if you've read this far!]

but evalyn just because we don't need something doesn't mean it cant enrich our lives. i don't need to read to my children, they can all read themselves, but they enjoy having a story.

Oh, and wazzup, I see you have a philosophical background. (I just read your post, "Clearly SuberbanRhonda, your religious and philosophical background is lacking. Suggest your read Hobbes and Darwin.")

-- What do you make of the dilemma Socrates uncovers in the Euthyphro, wazzup, in the light of your expressed thoughts about how morality might depend on religion and god?

Of course Plato was writing (and Socrates arguing) a while before Hobbes or Darwin. That dilemma still looks a problem for contemporary apologetics, though, no? Which horn do you take? Anything to say about why?

dancestomyowntune: ' ... just because we don't need something doesn't mean it cant enrich our lives.'

Sure enough. You're right. But my talk of how my children turned out might make you think it behoved an advocate of religious worship in schools to say in what way their lives would've been enriched by religion. If you accept my word (and why should you not?) that my DC are the decent, moral, sensitive, successful paragons I claim, what might they be missing that religious worship in their schooldays might have supplied?

'Not necessary ...', you might read as 'not necessary for flourishing as a human being'. My children's grown-up lives show that religious worship in schools is not necessary ['isn't needed', you'd say] for that. Fair enough? Then what?

Lol at intellectual poncery

"Lol at intellectual poncery"

Yeh, lol. Too clever by half.

Oh, and wazzup, I see you have a philosophical background. (I just read your post, "Clearly SuberbanRhonda, your religious and philosophical background is lacking. Suggest your read Hobbes and Darwin.")

That is an assumption. I have read a lot.I cannot claim to have a "philosophical background" in any academic sense. Lots of assumptions around here.

just because we don't need something doesn't mean it cant enrich our lives.'

Iwatched my DC when young and realised that too many things were missing.
I did not come from a religious home but Bible stories and fables from the Ancient Greeks I recalled lovingly asa child were missed from school for them. So I had to see them put back in. Its about being a little bit better - a little more read, a little more cultured, a little more knowledgeable, a little more tenacious.

You may not need it to " get on" God knows what you need to get on is a load of BS these days. But still some things are enriching even if they seem to serve no purpose for many. On the other hand BS just stinks.

Even in the garden BS needs to be well rotted before its valuable too.

Sorry, wazzup; when you said of someone else on the thread that their 'religious and philosophical background is lacking' and suggested reading material for them, I assumed you thought your own background wasn't lacking in the same way. An assumption, as you say, but maybe understandable under the circumstances.

When you say, 'You may not need it to " get on"' you are surely right. My suggestion was a little stronger than that, though. I suggested (argued, in fact) that you do not need the experience of religious worship at all if you want to grow up as a decent and flourishing human being. You seem to disagree. But for the life of me I can't see why, because you haven't said. Do you think my argument unsound? I'd be interested to know.

You might like to look up the Euthyphro dialogue, btw. Here's a link to a translation. Something from those old Greeks you mention that's at least as educative as their 'fables'.

Sorry, wazzup; when you said of someone else on the thread that their 'religious and philosophical background is lacking' and suggested reading material for them

No, it was more a comment to the questioning as to where I had my quote / ideas on life being nasty brutish and short ( which of course is Hobbes) and my comment on Nature red in tooth and claw ( which is Darwin).

I am up to speed on Socrates thanks. I am a quick study because I know I have gaps.

My suggestion was a little stronger than that, though. I suggested (argued, in fact) that you do not need the experience of religious worship at all if you want to grow up as a decent and flourishing human being

I disagree with this. Its rather like looking at the hierachy of needs of Maslow though. To survive and apparently thrive ( if you define thrive as being able to make ones way in the world, have a job, house etc) you do not need beauty art and challenge to be "always becoming" ( to use the humanistic phrase) or reach full potential ( self actualisation I think is the proper phrase) . You can appear to do well without the higher order of the hierarchy. For example, I can have a nice house without lots of pictures around. Some people do.They claim to be minimalist. Living in a minimalist house sounds good but in experience it becomes cold and soul less often after a time. Some people carry on liking it. Personally I miss the pictures.

Of course, the big question is, if I had not seen the pictures would I have missed them? Well, yes, because I did live in a minimalist house and I kept wondering where the something more was and I didnt know what the more was but I knew I wanted it. I guess cavemen thought the same way, thats why they drew on walls.

Indeed I had the same feeling about religion. I could see all the things the Church said - I went to church alone because my family were atheists.I could not have gone if I had not seen that at school in a morning assembly. But still I thought , there must be more and in fact there is- there is this thing called Theology and even Christian Tradition and philosophy which isnt taught except to those lucky enough to have been given the chance. But why shouldnt we all get the chance to see the extras and decide if we want them or not? Why say, " they do not need that" - which is what you are advocating with religion in schools.

Too often folk these days are on some quest to "find themselves" or " find happiness" or similar. It takes many forms - searching for your ancestors seems popular at the moment. Others look for culture or a soul mate or something. Many just hop around from one thing to another and find nothing satisfies. I think that is a reflection of how many may well be missing that religious element. They cannot find it because they do not know where to begin - because they have not been given the starting point.

Bit like me and academics. I do not have the schooling for it. I have big gaps in my education and they are still not filled and I do not know where to begin because I do not know what they all are. All I know is that when someone like you comes here, I dont have the academics to keep up. You raise the game and make me look thick. Where in fact I am the utilitarian who was not given the tools to flourish. I am the one who wastold by others " you do not need that" I have to keep playing catch up and I am always finding more. Had I been given the basics in the firstplace I would not be in that position.

The idea of flourishing is a comparison. I can appear to be doing well until you come along. I am doing very nicely thank you but its not flourishing.

Yet you would deny your DC those tools and claim they are doing well - well so am I, but still you do not know and neither do I how well they are really doing.

I would rather give my DC the full opportunity to explore religion and such and then at least if they reject it they do so from a position of knowledge, not one of ignorance brought about by others saying it is not necessary because they didnt need it ( or their DC didnt need it and look they are doing fine without).

Thats a long answer. Sorry.

Just come across this bizarrely titled post - Wow OP!!

The law states that a 'broadly Christian' act of worship is to be included in schools. Sadly, in this country that means that the children are probably being taught some obscene message of tolerance for fellow human beings, to treat others as they would wish to be treated and to ponder their own spirituality in the hope that they would have a richer and more meaningful life. Horrible to think of how this indoctrination insidiously affects our children.

No child can be 'forced' to worship anything as this is something that comes from the heart, regardless of exterior action.

Like others have said I would rather give my DC the full opportunity to explore religion and such and then at least if they reject it they do so from a position of knowledge, not one of ignorance brought about by others' personal opinions.

And as a Christian who actually believes that Jesus Christ was who he said he was, I too, wish that the rather ridiculous idea that you can have a 'compulsory act of worship' for someone of whom you have no real understanding would be abolished. I would much rather that children are presented the world views of each and every religion (including atheism and agnosticism) so they can make up their own minds. I personally pray that anyone who truly seeks spiritual truth would find it, and a lot of the 'Christian education' taking place in the UK is actually spreading inaccuracies and MISunderstanding about the actual message of the Christian faith. Sad but true.

I work in an infant school, state infant in England. We have a very mixed entry. We do have whole group assemblies 3 times a week, and year group twice a week. However there are no prayers, no hymns and no religious sermons/talks/address. Ours are more about PHSE and SEAL type topics - friendship, working together, caring for things, anti bullying, etc.

Other than church affiliated schools I don't know of any round here that actually have active worship.

I work in an infant school, state infant in England. We have a very mixed entry. We do have whole group assemblies 3 times a week, and year group twice a week. However there are no prayers, no hymns and no religious sermons/talks/address. Ours are more about PHSE and SEAL type topics - friendship, working together, caring for things, anti bullying, etc.
Now that is one agenda I do not klike. You accuse religions of indoctrination. Hypocracy at its best.

I would rather my DC get a proper full assembly ( whether they believe or understand it) than get that secular half baked tripe. At least in an assembly they get to experiecne the music, the quiet and some moral message from which they can start the journey.For many it may be allthey get.

SEAL and PHSE is giving them a bunch of flowers when what they need is a full blown plant in soil with roots growing so they can understand where the flowers come from.

I have accused nobody and nothing of indoctrination!!!

A religious assembly would not be in the best interests for my school. We have a vast %age of children who are not of a christian background.

From the Government advise document:
*in collective worship to enable pupils, wherever possible, to
share a single act of collective worship, while ensuring that
worship is appropriate for the pupils taking part. *

A fully Christian act of workship would not be appropriate for more than half of our pupils.

I don't know what your PHSE/SEAL is like but here PHSE and SEAL include moral messages. There is no indoctrination nor any hypocracy. They are stories of scenarios, moralistic type stuff (very much like religious pasages might be in many cases tbh)done via stories, film, acting and music.

We have singing and we have quiet reflection time. We don't have religious songs (hymns) and we don't have prayers to a god - instead we have reflection time to think about the messages given out in the assembly. They are also interactive with children given the chance to speak up.

So from your complaint about a PHSE style assembly:
"At least in an assembly they get to experiecne the music, the quiet and some moral message from which they can start the journey."

Our pupils experience music
Our pupils experience the quiet
Our pupils experience the moral message

They just don't get the God/Jesus type bits included.

BS Thats my opinion. Not even well rotted but at least you admit you do it.

I took my DC out of school because of that sort of assembly.