Will your child be starting worship this September?

[LichtenA]

Christian worship has been compulsory in our state schools since 1944. The law is widely ignored but can cause problems for parents, pupils and even teachers where it is enforced.

As part of their state education, this September, you child could be compelled to participate in Christian worship to a God they may have little or no concept of.

You can sign the petition to end compulsory worship in schools.

Signed, thank you for sharing.

I'm an agnostic and am raising my children to be aware of all religions so that they can decide what they believe when they are older. Worship should be by individual choice not imposed by government. I've had a few issues with the levels of Christian worship at the school DS attends, one too many Jesus loves me colouring books shoved in his book bag!

Surely that level would only happen in an explicitly Christian school?

Do you mean the colouring book? Nope, non-faith school but the governor responsible for diversity is VERY Christian, that's my issue really. I couldn't really complain about excessive church involvement if I'd chosen a faith school.

Don't get me started on the happy crucifix art work at Easter.....

Well, that's not appropriate. And I'd complain about that. Assembly? Not so much.

DoctorDonna If the nearest school to you is an explicitly Christian school, you may not have a choice to send your child elsewhere. I live in an oversubscribed city area where non-practicing-of-religion parents pretty much have to list schools in order of distance and hope for the best. Ds was likely to end up at a CofE school as 4 of the 7 nearest were, and I applied for them and the two non-faith ones.

But the level of prayer in assembly has a lot more to do with individual teachers than whether the school is nominally CofE versus non-denominational. It would be good to have DfE or Ofsted confirm that children should always be given the option of non-participation in prayers even if they are in the room, and that for example children shouldn't be told off for not staring at the ground or putting palms togerther, if they are sitting quietly.

They do confirm that regularly, all that is required is a letter in from parents.

Not true - the school can change to a different religion if that suits their better. Or at least they certianly used to be able to - not sure if this changes with the new curriculum.

You can get special permission which is what happens with Jewish and Hindu schools, but if you are a bog standard Comp with no religious affiliation you can't. You can also only ask for permission for the entire school to change, so you can#t have 2 assemblies one for Christian and one for another faith.

And withdrawing your child is not that simple, the school is perfectly within its rights to ask that you arrange supervision for your child while they are not in prayer.

First one - yes has a bias but also links to various bits of law

humanism.org.uk/education/parents/collective-worship-and-school-assemblies-your-rights/

Guidance from the government
www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/281929/Collective_worship_in_schools.pdf

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/stephen-evans/worship-in-schools_b_5572023.html

NSS again there is bias
www.secularism.org.uk/collective-worship.html

As for how concerned you should or should not be have a look at some of the groups that go in to schools.

www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/state-schools-an-open-door-for-evangelical-groups-to-push-creationism-warns-study-8872452.html

www.secularism.org.uk/groups-currently-active-in-schoo.html

You can get special permission which is what happens with Jewish and Hindu schools, but if you are a bog standard Comp with no religious affiliation you can't.

Yes you can. From Dept. of Education website:

However, if this is inappropriate for some or all pupils, the head teacher can apply to the Local Education Authority for a determination to have this requirement lifted.

Not that this changes anything, any form of collective worship is wrong in state schools imo - I was just pointing out the error from whoever it was who said that it had to be Christian worship.

We have never, and would never, have a Creationist in to speak in that way. If you have a problem with an individual speaker - I did over a bank sending people in to deliver an advert for their company lesson on finance.
Students can be, and are removed from assembly.
A FAR bigger issue in schools is the fact that academies and free schools could potentially teach Creationism in Science. THAT is much worthier of protest.

at DSs school, when the options forms are handed out in year 9, the RE opt out is at the bottom of the form for all those who want it.
Comp secondary schools are not big on assemblies anyway

DoctorDonna so you would rather your dc was taught an unproven theory ie Darwin.
I would rather trust the Bible - a book with historical based evidence.

"historical based evidence"
where in the bible does it explain how computers work?

LichtenA - thanks for the link to the petition. I have signed it.

Theory does not mean quite the same thing in Science as it does in common parlance.
As someone brought up Catholic, I have, like the Catholic church, never had a problem with Evolution. We even did a project on dinosaurs in primary school. Love dinosaurs.
I would rather any children I have (gender is irrelevant) are taught Science in Science, and about different religious faiths in RSS. :)

I think it's important that children understand religion, even if they don't practise religion. In effect, schools teach all religions equally (including the C of E school my DDs attended).
Christianity has shaped this country, and its important that it's understood, even if not agreed with.

I completely agree with this, but teaching children about religion should not (and does not need to) include an act of worship. It is outdated and unnecessary. Besides which, I would imagine we have a reached a point now where the majority of the parents in the UK who say they do have a strong faith at the heart of their family are not even Christian anyway. Most 'Christians' these days are Christian in name only. They may take some sort of lazy, cultural comfort in the label but they haven't spent a day with any sort of God in their thoughts, their hearts or their deeds in years, if ever.

The ones who currently withdraw their children from Christian worship are the ones who are either staunch atheists with principles, or a different religion altogether and live in mortal fear of some sort of cross-contamination.

Don't assume that all the children not withdrawn are there because their parents care about a daily act of worship, or want them to pray to the Christian god. The vast majority are there because they parents are ambivalent, indifferent and apathetic about it all.

But. Nobody is forcing anyone to pray. Most people stare into space during it. The people you need to complain to are the government and OFSTED. OFSTED may consider failing a school if there's no communal act of worship. Our school uses it as a time for reflection more than anyone else. All I ask of my form is that they are respectfully quiet. The school cannot change it. Lobby the political parties. If they thought there were votes in it; it would soon change. The petition thing is a red herring. They do not need to consider them when they reach a certain number - several petitions have been ignored - parliamentary time is limited. Lobby if you must.
As I've said there are far more concerning things to do with faith and school than assemblies.

"teaching children about religion should not (and does not need to) include an act of worship"

This sounds very reasonable, but it actually betrays a lack of understanding of religion. What gets taught in RE (which is often taught extremely poorly, as Ofsted have recognised is often no more than the major festivals and some of the core beliefs, often conveyed as a series of statements to be learned by rote (Hindus believe that.... Muslims believe that... Christians believe that...).

The problem of this is that collective worship and/or spiritual practice are central to all religions even non-theistic ones like Buddhism and to understand what a religion is all about you have to experience worship. No one can be forced to pray, or to worship against their will as far as I know there isn't any way of dictating what someone does internally. And for some faiths you shouldn't take part if you are not a believer for Muslims, for example, to take part in the prayers and make the movements is considered to be a confession of faith. But if you want your child to understand religion and if you want them to be able to make a real choice for themselves about it, a choice informed by understanding they need to experience worship.

Btw, as far as I know, the majority of those who withdraw their children from worship are atheists who object to worship on principle -- those from religions other than Christianity are normally happy for their children to experience Christian worship.

I am happy for my children to learn about any and all religions at school. What I am not happy about is for religious teachings not to be given any context and just stated as fact, and for theism to be the default.

An assembly where children understand that Christians practice prayer as they believe it connects them to God, and children are invited to engage in this worship or simply take a quiet moment think about something, is fine IMO.

An assembly where children are asked to pray to a God for a particular outcome, intimating that it is entirely reasonable/rational to pray and that their wish is more likely to come true if they direct it to a deity, is absolutely not acceptable.

Ditto creationism being explained as a facet of religion versus being stated as fact; or Bible stories being taught as history rather than in the context of a story from a classic book.

MackerelofFact I'm with you on all of those things (and I am a Christian).

Well then, you'd both like my school then :D

I don;t want my school to be forced to provide collective christian worship. My faith is my own business and not up to the school to provide. I can;t withdraw DS from it without singling out my child so I put up and shut up. Not great but the best I can do at the moment.

Our school even went as far as to say that if you withdrew from Christian worship eg the carol service then you couln't be involved in serving the Xmas lunch (upper classes serve lower classes).

I'm happy for my school to provide religious education about all major religions, even to cover Christianity in more depth because it is the majority religion (at least in theory) in this country. They don;t teach that no religion is a valid option mind you.

I've signed.

I'm happy for the school to provide experience of religious worship as part of the RE syllabus in which case they should be going to worship carried out by professionals in religious places. Not 30 mins in school hall carried out by head teacher who may well be an atheist.

Well, what they are doing is certainly not best practice. Our carol service is for everyone (most people snooze through the homily that is still provided - I think this may be on the way out) but it has nothing to do with Christmas dinner or anything else.

Apparently the church agrees with abolishing worshipping in schools. Churches could step up and provide a 30 minute session after school once a week if they felt the loss of this 'nod' to religion.
Regardless of the national curriculum requirements, if you think about it, it is absolutely ridiculous to have worshipping in schools! Church schools at a push but not community schools. As someone else said, we don't have to say prayers in libraries, colleges, hospitals etc, why target young children? Prayers in the House of Commons and council meetings are just as bizarre. If government need spiritual help to do their job maybe they are just not up to it in the first place!

I work in an infants' school and the praying sets my teeth on edge. Everyone chants after the HT ' Dear God, Thank you for my teachers and helping me learn new things' etc Amen. Giving thanks is ok but it doesn't need the Christian bookends.

Spirituality in schools could easily focus on the wonder of nature etc without a Christian bias.

I'm sure it's not best practice DoctorDN but is an example of how children who try to opt out can be easily singled out. It isn't the only example of this across the country.

At best the requirement for worship in schools should be removed, at worst it should be an opt in rather than an opt out.

The default should be that state funded community schools should not be obliged to provide christian worship by untrained lay people. Its ridiculous.