Will your child be starting worship this September?

[LichtenA]

Christian worship has been compulsory in our state schools since 1944. The law is widely ignored but can cause problems for parents, pupils and even teachers where it is enforced.

As part of their state education, this September, you child could be compelled to participate in Christian worship to a God they may have little or no concept of.

You can sign the petition to end compulsory worship in schools.

If it takes a vicar a long time to be able to lead worship that would be why a HT saying prayers is a bad thing. And don't assume prayers in assembly are being led by a benevolent christian HT, he/she could be a David Icke type follower and be drip feeding all sorts of 'religion' to young fresh minds! Eeek!

dancestomyowntune - why do you assume that those of us who object to state sponsored religion in schools don;t take our children to worship?

niminypiminy - I'm pretty sure our head teacher didn't train for years in a seminary and therefore is no more qualified to lead collective worship than I. And you're not really suggesting that Humanists don't have a truly open mind but people of faith do are you?! In my experience humanists have often come to their beliefs through a long process of of questioning and research. In fact in my experience, truly religious parents would not dream for a second of actively encouraging their primary age children to practice worship of another faith or truly try having thoughts "without god in them" in fact the opposite.

I'm not "in a lather" (nice hyperbole though) - the fact that I object to enforced religious worship in schools just means that I do not believe it is the role of a school to provide rather dodgy and poor quality worship by untrained lay people. I believe that is the role of parents and spiritual leaders.

why not change it to opt in?

Dueling - I've asked this repeatedly on other threads - there is no answer except "we don't want to"

Kewcumber, you always say things much better than I can

I doubt that Limaroo - in fact I was just thinking "Damn she got in before me and much more succinctly"!

Oops Kimaroo

niminy

"the ways you fall short of your ideals"

Really? Children from the age of four should be encouraged to have a view about "their own ideals" and the assumption that they are falling short? That's perilously close to the "all babies are born in sin" clap-trap.

i do not have a problem with changing it to opt in. i felt that in sending our children to a church school that was what i was doing. i also understand that in some areas there may be a lack of choice when it comes to primary education and that is fundamentally wrong. i do not assume that everyone who opposes worship in school has no faith but there have been several on this thread who have said they are not religious and do not wish there children to be.

as it stands i am all for children learning and choosing for themselves. i was attempting to put another perspective across.

to reiterate; i believe it shouldn't be forced, or result in exclusion from certain school activities if you choose not to participate.

Although we're members of a faith community that is important to us (Quakers) and DC's attend a faith secondary (because it was the best choice for them as individuals) I think I'd support this.
Though I think it's important that children's education has some spiritual input, and that they learn about each other's faiths and have opportunity to explore these in RE, I think worship, prayer, and raising a child within a faith is best left to families and faith communities

dances, you've issued the point spectacularly.

People aren't talking about opting in to a religious school by choosing that school for your children. They are saying that compulsory Christian worship, which is a requirement of all schools, religious or not, should be opt-in because at the moment, it isn't.

*missed

As I understand it, the law that there should be a 'broadly Christian' act of worship daily in schools is widely flouted because headteachers and their staff do not feel capable of leading it. In my children's school there are only two such acts of worship per year because the Head doesn't want to lead them. It doesn't seem to interfere with the school's Good rating from Ofsted.

But it does mean that only those children from church-going families will have any experience of what worship is, and if the kinds of disciplines it encourages you to practice.

suburbanrhonda I am not suggesting that young children should be told they are sinners. But surely even children as young as four can begin to think about when they haven't been kind, about saying sorry and about being kinder to others?

Our HT is not qualified to lead religious worship but does so as required by law every week more than once a week. My DS doesn't lack discipline and he has experienced worship - thank you niminy - it's up to me whether he practices a religion thank you (up until the age when he holds his own opinion) not the State's.

And I don;t think you meet "church-going" indeed many many deeply religious people never set foot inside a church instead choosing a temple , mosque, gurdwara etc.

Indeed if my DS is ever to decide he has a faith its far more likely to be the faith of his birth so I'm not sure exposure to christian worship adds much.

As it is I do take him to church services occasionally. It requires a great deal less discipline than many other activities he does so I'm not sure your point about the "special" kind of discipline that christianity brings. IN my experience its one of the least demanding religions.

Is there are single example of a non-faith school policing whether people are actually praying in assembly? Is that even possible to do?

Me, me, I have one. My ds has been told off several times for not praying in a school assembly. He isn't at a faith school. Also, there are several 'special' assemblies every year where a load of Alpha types all high on Jesus and prayer and what-not are allowed to peddle their religious wares in the name of 'spreading the Xtian message'. I have brought it up with the school but they say they are following govt guidelines and my only option is to remove him from assembly altogether which would mean, of course, that he misses the aspects of communal togetherness that assembly fosters - special announcements, school news, children's birthdays, awards for what they have done in class etc which I don't think he should have to forgo just because some religious types can't stand the thought of children not being indoctrinated.

Niminy, your last sentence implies that children only get this kind of input in christian prayer! Apart from values taught at home, the curriculum includes PSHE where 'morals', for want of a better word, are covered and also the school day itself is immersed in community behaviours where kindness, tolerance and empathy are practiced. There's no need for extra help from an invisible entity. If there is, go to church, that's what it's there for!

But surely even children as young as four can begin to think about when they haven't been kind, about saying sorry and about being kinder to others?

and you need to be a religious christian to do this?

Actually, I can't see what the benefits for any child are re 'knowing what worship is'. Why do they need to know?

Fwiw I was brought up in a 'split' household where my parents were only 'allowed' (they were grown-ups ffs!) to marry on the condition that their children were brought up in a particular faith. One half of my family didn't attend my parents' wedding as a result and indeed didn't talk to them for many years and this stipulation caused me lots of grief when I got old enough to think for myself so as someone whose family life has been not only impacted by but actually damaged by religion I would much rather that children were blithely unaware of 'worship' because I have seen the problems that it can cause. As such, I was pretty horrified with the (non-faith) school that I sent my son to requiring that he should pray - I wanted him to grow up free from the cant, prating and hypocrisy that I associate with religion, but it seems that that is impossible in this country and that makes me very sad.

"And you need to be a religious Christian to do this?"

No, you don't, and I never said you did. Please read what I actually said rather than assuming you know what I said.

I outlined four things that Christian worship does (saying sorry, saying thank you, thinking of others, coming together as community). I said that those things are valuable whether or not you believe in God. I said that a humanist assembly could do these just as well, but that they are hard to achieve well.

And what about the Christian worship that makes families not talk to each other and ostracize members of their families for years including babes-in-arms? I agree that humanists wouldn't do that so well.

Cruikshank, that wedding and family situation does sound very difficult, but is it not possible there were other factors in play in such a damaging split? As for 'being allowed' to marry, presumably you actually mean 'being allowed to be married in a particular place of worship' (rather than in a civil ceremony)?

Also regarding your child being told off for not praying in assembly, were you actually there? Did you witness it? I ask because I've been in a lot of assemblies and only ever seen children 'told off' for being disruptive. I'm also a parent and I know that the accounts I get from my children of what happened at school are not always the entire, objective truth.

The only factor that was in play was the sectarianism in the country we lived in, which was down to religion. I think if you haven't lived it, you don't quite get how it goes. If you've never been in a conversation with someone who tries to scope you out by asking which school you went to, which team you support, which pubs you go to, and then deciding whether or not to give you a kicking, I guess you just wouldn't understand.

Re my son being told off, I'm not sure why he would make it up - the alternative to his version of events is that nothing happened at all, whereas according to him something definitely happened so it isn't a case of him bending the truth - he was either spoken to or he wasn't, and according to him he was spoken to.

Ok I beg your pardon.

-- And another thing. My own children, now fully grown, experienced no 'worship' of any kind, at school or elsewhere, during any part of their childhood. Nor, during their entire schooling, were they ever made to attend a 'school assembly'. They turned out fine: decent, courteous, caring, kind, moral people; good parents to their children. Oh, and successful in their chosen careers, too.

So, we conclude? Neither school assembly nor acts of worship are necessary for children's development. It can only be unimaginative parochialism that makes many British people think otherwise. (What else could it be, given the facts of the matter?)

And another thing. My own children, now fully grown, experienced no 'worship' of any kind, at school or elsewhere, during any part of their childhood. Nor, during their entire schooling, were they ever made to attend a 'school assembly'. They turned out fine: decent, courteous, caring, kind, moral people; good parents to their children. Oh, and successful in their chosen careers, too

So, we conclude? Neither school assembly nor acts of worship are necessary for children's development. It can only be unimaginative parochialism that makes many British people think otherwise. (What else could it be, given the facts of the matter?)

Surely that is the equivelant of concluding itsspring because I have seen a swallow outside?

And who says your DC have turned out OK?

How do we know anything? From what I can tell DC tell their parents very little these days. But then neither did I tell my parents anything and from the surface I probably looked OK too.
Not as that has always been the case.

Judging by our dysfunctional society over the past 30 years, I suspect something may be very wrong.

" Not waving but Drowning" I think was the opening line of that poem.

I have my DC in a proper religious school. A good foundation is worth a thousand waves when drowning.

What's a "proper religious school", wuzzup?

And what's a "good foundation"?

Just wondering as it isn't at all clear from your post.