What is so bad about faith schools?

[Jalexandra]

After reading the 'anti sitting on a fence' thread, I was surprised by how many people had chosen faith schools as a subject they feel strongly about and was just wondering why.
I can't think of any good reason to be against them so maybe you can enlighten me.

I'd only go as far as saying they are one equality in a whole system of equalities, and not the worst at that. I don't believe they are devisive, but probably not the way forward.

er, 'one inequality in a system of inequalities.' Feck.

I've asked this question in other places and threads, and not really got much of an answer, so here it goes again.

Why do religious people want their kids to go to faith schools ?

On the surface, that might sound stupidly trival (and I am a shallow person who often gets called stupid).

But when we look at the output of schools we see an adult population which rarely if ever attends church.
They don't even seem to communicate the religion accurately to children. A huge % of people who would label themselves as Christian also see some merit in reincarnation, or believe that spirits walk the Earth, that animals have souls and dozens of other things which are in direct oppostion to the teachings of the main Christian sects who control schools.

I'm not saying reincarnation, homeopathy etc are necessarily wrong in this, or that Christianity is right, but clearly they are not successeding in imparting even very basic tenets.

This is of course not confined to religion, we read that many kids leave school thinking that Gandalf defeated the Spanish Armada and the majority of people in this country believe that boiling water would free it of radioactive contmination.

Thus why do they leave what is to them such a critical issue (the souls of their children) to a process that simply doesn't do what they want it to do ?

we had two major high schools here. one shut down and has now been opened as a jewish high school. so my son has to go to the new 'super school' (super=too big). how can i explain to him that he isn't allowed to go there because of his religion (or lack of)? the whole thing will split our community. it isn't right

Here are some things that are generally accepted to be good things in this country: Equal opportunities for men and women, no discrimination against people because of their sexuality, access to condoms to prevent STD's. Many religious people think these are good things, however, some on the basis of their religion don't. I think that as things like rights to equal opportunities are enshrined in law, it is unfair if I have to decide either to attend a religious institution that does not believe in equal opportunities in order to go to the local school, or get in the car to drive my children to a non-denominational school. Even if I was a practising Christian, there are many churches that I would not want to attend, and I would feel discriminated against if I felt that attendance at a particular church should affect my child's education.

I expect People's opinions on this subject are very influenced by where they live. I really could not care less if one primary school in 10 is Catholic, however, in many areas more than 50% of schools are church schools, which does seem rather excessive.

If you are genuinely religious DC, you will not be leaving it solely to the school at all. You'll be taking your children to church/mosque etc etc. Saying prayers, meditating or whatever else at home & observing the rules of the faith to which you belong at home.
However, the genuinely religious will want their child to attend a school of their own faith (if one is available) to reinforce the beliefs.
Surely that is fairly obvious!

'Religious schools being state funded just seems wrong to me.'

Whilst I see the point of the statement above, There is a significant flaw: because whatever it si that they are doing that people don't like, at least they are currently doing it within LEA control.

My son goes to a non fee paying community Church school that exists outside LEA control as a pure fluke related to funding. i found out today that they are partially above SEN legalities; that the LEA despise but ahve little control; theya re exempt from the rules about giving food to children whoa re allergic.....

Bring EVERY school into the syste,. if it is a community catchment school, but don't exclude them

harpsi I see your point; however a lot of the time when these threads pop up I do see a big difference between Catholic and C of E Schools

there is a massive difference across the country; and certainly my dd's school does not require church attendance. The same point about C of E Schools has been made before on this type of thread; there are many, many schools for whom religious commitment rarely comes into force as a condition of entry. most of the kids in dd's school don't go to church - and I know this for a fact since I attend the church it is affiliated with regularly. None of the parents who do go, go because of the school - there's just not that ethos or need

so as to your point about benefiting the whole community, in my community I would say that it does just this - the local C of E school provides a very good education for the broad spread of Anglican/ non Anglican community that it geographically represents

I do think that religious commitment seems to be far more of an issue in Catholic schools but that's just something that seems to have come across in these threads; I have no experience whatsoever of catholicism

Bugsy2, I suppose I just don't see why people think a religious school actually does support the parents belief all that well.

The numbers do rather imply quite the opposite, and the stated beliefs of the majority of people show a basic misunderstanding of doctrine combined with apathy and inconsistency.

Also how do you deal with a kid (like I was) who rejected this stuff early and loudly ?
Should a parent or teacher have the right to impose it ?
When is a child competent to choose his own beliefs ?
Most Christians I know are dead keen on the idea that faith is supposed to be voluntary, yet this is inconsistent with it being structured into people forcing it in as part of education.

I have terrible ethical issues with the notion of "reinforicng my beliefs" on my kids.

DS attends a nominally CoE private school, but we would not like it one bit if they tried to push our view of nihilistic rationality on our kids. We want them to make up their own minds. I would feel a failure if they became superstitious, but that's my problem not theirs and the idea of employing others to force it upon them is anathema to me.

This is not the same as "moral" education, which again the numbers imply that faith education, (particularly the Catholic one I had) leads to greater chance of doing time in prison.
We rather like Thunderbirds as an ethical frame work.
It shows that strength can be defined as the ability to help people, and that if the bad guys try to stop you then that's why TB1 & 2 have guns.

What do you think would happen if faith schools were abolished? In reality it would cause a lot more problems than it would solve. If you are not religious, don't want to be religious and don't want your children to go to a faith school why on earth begrudge people who do? It is not about money imo.

yes cappucino but, with respect, it is no answer to keep saying what a good example your school is. I am sure your school is a great school (esp if you are a christian) that doesn't answer the very real and valid objections that others have put on this thread.
It is common practice to require church attendance to bring preferential entry - maybe not in your school but in lots and lots of schools.
still reading thr link....

Also what is so bad about selection by faith. It atleast more random than by exams or postcodes

i begrudge it because it is causing undue tension in this town. there said it.

Domini no-one is talking about forcing religion on kids

I went to a C of E School and then didn't go to church for, ooh, about 15 years. Didn't think anything of it. Wasn't rebelling or anything, just not interested.

When I did decide to go to church, it was familiar, and I didn't feel threatened by it, I was able to go in there and decide for myself whether i wanted to carry on going based on a background of knowledge

you can make a new decision every day of your life to junk religion or reestablish it

I think my kids have enough of a brain of their own to be able to do exactly the same

not that they're sharing the same brain

they have one each

what problems would it cause? all children would receive a secular education in the state system.
churches would be free to set up schools or after school cclubs or whatever.
parents would be free to send their childfren there?
what problems?

it was a braver woman on here than me, harpsi, who suggested that if we start getting rid of the faith schools we'd face a massive fight not necessarily from Anglicans (cos, honestly, we're apathetic at best) but from Muslims, Hindus, etc who are much more passionate about their religious education

that would be where the trouble would be

there are a lot of people from all areas of the religious community for whom faith education is a massively big deal

Not to mention the fact that the faith's community would be visibly split into rich and poor.

eh?

Oh dear not this yet again.....

Sorry cappucino, but that does read rather like 'never mind the Christians we're OK, it's them Hindus and Muslims you want to worry about'...

In city areas there are a lot of Muslim / Hindu / Jewish etc schools, in Rural areas though they alrgely cease to exist whilst CofE / CofW etc schools proliferate. And I bet they would shout very loudly iindeed; they certainly did when I suggested to ours that it was important for all children to have some basic understanding of different faiths (Eg, that Sikh chap doesn't carry a sword to hurt me, but merely as a religious symbol)

Tantamount to conversion, they reckon.

Cappuccino, I mean, all the people who could afford it would send their children to the private Catholic school, so it would be obvious who couldn't afford it. It would be very unfair.

I meant any private faith school, not just Catholic.

That interpretation of Sikhism may be valid, but I have Sikh friends who see it as a right/duty to be armed.

As for "selection by faith", that's not what we have. Given the profound difference between numbers in religious observance and attending school, one is left inescably with the impression that parents are choosin such schools for reason that have nothing to do with religion.

Actually it's such a huge skew in the numbers that the you could actually make a case that there are quite literally no actual Christians in this country at all.
The few % who regularly attend match is remarkably like the number who need to attend church for a few years to get their kids into the right schools.

Of course I'm not saying that there are no Christians, or even that a majority of parents take their kids to church for that reason.
But...
One does here a lot of casual conversations that imply that people do just that. Fraud in the selection process for schools is endemic, as we know. Bribes are offered, lies are told about where kids live, and faith falsely claimed.

The churches seem haphazard on this. At the christening of my last godson, the priest referred to me as a fine supporter of the church, which is odd, since I hadn't been in his church for 20 years, and it was taking an act of will not to hospitalise him.

If the only way to get a good education and avoid a sink school was to squander Sunday mornings for a while wouldn't we all lie about this ?
One cannot help but wonder if part of the Church motivation is to keep bums on seats.

DC, It's a right duty to be armed as directed by the Guru hundreds of years ago DC, as a method of developing religious identity for Sikhism.... not as a direct threat to people they meet on the street.
it's a symbol that they belong to the Sikh initiates. That they are prepared to defend their Faith, not a direct threat.

And of course it's to keep bums on seats- why else?