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Original poster

What is so bad about faith schools?

208 replies

Jalexandra · 12/09/2006 20:26

After reading the 'anti sitting on a fence' thread, I was surprised by how many people had chosen faith schools as a subject they feel strongly about and was just wondering why.
I can't think of any good reason to be against them so maybe you can enlighten me.

OP posts:
Medulla · 13/09/2006 07:25

Helsi I agree with everything you have said and when DD goes to school next year I will be placing her in a catholic school as I want it to be part of her education. I am a practising catholic and it is important to me and my DH.

Pruni · 13/09/2006 07:54

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Pruni · 13/09/2006 07:56

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moondog · 13/09/2006 08:25

Faith schools are a wonderful idea.
I would send mydd to one with a strong Christian bias like a shot!

DominiConnor · 13/09/2006 08:46

kiskidee, I think the barbed remarks about Catholicism is because of experience.
At my (English) Catholic school protestants were repeatedly villified. I recall when there was a big push by Islam to gain converts by showing off their art and culture, this was described as "Jihad". Even as a naive kid, I could pick up the anti-semitism as they described with relish how the Jews killed Our Lord.

My background means I know a lot of former Catholics, and it's interesting that no faith group has so many former members who hate it so much. The lapsed Jews I know may reject that form of superstition, but none hate it. The Moslems vary a lot in how seriously they take it, but no I know actively hates it.
CoE's simply wander off.

I have no doubt some Catholic schools are fine examples of educating children for a diverse culture.
But...
The defect rate seems far higher for them than other suspersitions.
Even though the biggest group of poeple with invisible friends is CoE, I've never met anyone who took up hating it from their experience at school. With Catholics it sometimes feels that this hatred is the norm.
The organised rape of kids by the Catholic church, doesn't actually form a big bit of this. Although they did rape thousands of children, millions have passed through their hands with nothing more than bruises, so it cannot account for the hostility.

Cappuccino · 13/09/2006 09:06

I guess it would be of no use trying to put forward the points again that my dd's C of E school is populated mainly by children who don't go to church, so is hardly slinging the heathens out to be educated in the wilderness

or that children can be excused from worship if their parents request it

or that the reason there are faith schools at all is that the system of education in this country was largely started off by the church because so few children across the country received any education at all - the church took responsibility for providing schools and education because they just did not exist. It's not like the Evil Christians snuck in and took things over.

no you're right, Sherlock. We may as well just shut up

but if anyone does actually want to debate rather than trotting out the same old knee-jerk points, can we all have a read of this which addresses a lot of the points made here and have a proper debate which is actually based on something?

Pruni · 13/09/2006 09:11

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Pruni · 13/09/2006 09:12

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SSSandy · 13/09/2006 09:13

Didn't read the thread but have to say I am SO happy with dd's Catholic school. It's a huge weight off my mind to know she's there. It's a wonderful school and the teachers are fantastic, just fantastic. Where I live, couldn't have imagined sending her to an ordinary German state school, despite all the bilingual and specialist types they have. Hope schools like this are still around for my grandchildren to attend one day!

moondog · 13/09/2006 09:13

Cap,really?
Kids excluded from worship by choice?
Bloody hell,what a nerve!!

Cappuccino · 13/09/2006 09:15

Pruni!

moyasmum · 13/09/2006 09:59

Went to primary school (cofe) in the 60s,removed occasionally for specific masses at church(ash wednesday that kind of thing)and although i knew we were different ,it was never a big deal.Catholic secondary(70s),which was rubbish acaedemically but morally ok(sex ed was limeted but we knew it all from mum anyway,and the school really focussed on importance of building relationships,homosexuality not much dealt with except for one bio lesson where the teacher showed sexual preference on a distrobution graph, most people were kind of in the middle,certainly not abusively anti pc(ok this was the 70s-but all our bias seemed to come from tv,and others).
My point being ,that my kids go to the only catholic school in the city ,which takes kids from many social backgrounds,also a lot of non catholics.
As long as the ethos is sound and they are in a supportive environment ,they can only be better for it. I support nuturing enquiring schools,not bigotted narrow minded ones,and thats where im sending my kids.

Gobbledigook · 13/09/2006 10:02

Some people have just missed the point entirely on this thread - for me, it's nothing to do with the results of the faith schools or how good they are and it's nothing to do with thinking that faith schools are 'bible bashing' (WTF?!) - it's the principle. The simple fact that a state funded, public facility discriminates entry on the grounds of religion. No other state funded service does this, does it?

And that old argument 'there are lots of things my taxes pay for that I don't use' - er, yes, but you could if you wanted to - it's about choice. My taxes pay for fire, police, local swimming pools blah, blah and I haven't had need for any of them personally - but if I did, they would be there and I would not be excluded from using them.

I'm not making the argument because I'm not religious - I go to church and I have my beliefs but I still feel that state funded faith schools are fundamentally wrong.

Medulla · 13/09/2006 10:04

I went to a catholic primary school and it was fantastic bith educationally, morally and spiritually. The school had alot of CofE pupils who had the option to miss the catholic masses we attended during school time (eg. Good friday) DC I am horrified by your comments as generalised as they are.

VeniVidiVickiQV · 13/09/2006 10:19

Superstition?

Oh dear.

DominiConnor · 13/09/2006 10:21

I took care to say they were my experiences, and perhaps not generally true of Catholics. I even explicitly mentioned good Catholic schools.

Gobbledigook has a valid point.
In all state funded activities the rules are extremely explicit that they should be open to all.

I may not use the nearest state provided swimming pool, but regardless of my (lack) faith or race it's there for me.

I used to be a director of a firm that did stuff for HM Treasury. The contract said expictly that we had a positive duty to enforce both the spirit and the letter of various bits of equal opportunity laws. They rang us up from time to time to check this happened. They clearly approved of the fact that we had racial minorities and women at senior level. Their questionnaires didn't quite capture that the Chinese bloke was on the board because he was one of the richest men in the world and owned the firm personally, and the female respresentation was his daughter, but at least they tried
We were left in no doubt that the money would dry up big time if we were caught in any serious discrimination.

Yet schools are exempted from this.
Faith schools discriminate in ways that would either be illegal or face immiediate withdrawal of government support if done by anyone else.

They also run foul of various rules and laws designed to stop discrimination against disabled people. Although we know that faith schools are much less likely to accept a child with any sort of special needs, the government is not going to do anything about it.

Cappuccino · 13/09/2006 10:28

Domini I don't know where your info about church schools and special needs comes from, but as the parent of a child with cerebral palsy who is being fantastically integrated and educated at a faith school along with various other SN kids, I'd like a bit of back-up for that blanket statement before I get all riled up

and if we're talking about things being open to disabled people, I can fill quite a bit of this thread up with information about how things I pay for with my taxes - like the local swimming pool you mention for example, or public transport - which are laughably not accessible for my disabled daughter and therefore my family to use. Plenty of my tax money goes towards public services which exclude us while 'complying' in some way with legislation by means such as putting a little sign up saying disabled people are welcome

Whereas my church school has just spent lord knows how much installing ramps.

Blu · 13/09/2006 10:40

I don't think faith schools are 'bad'. I think they are anachronistic.
For the reasons Gobbledigook has stated
because I believe they are divisive and that is the last thing we ned atm
Because they were originally founded (afaik) to provide an education for all children who were not getting it - I suspect that the church-gpoing criteria now applied in many areas would horrify the philanthropic founders, for whom the church was the welfare state of the day.
Because in some rural areas the ONLY option for miles around is a CoE school - which doesn't exactly give choice. yes kids can opt out of the prayer, but then children are not being treated equally. (And if the religious engagement in these rural CoE schools is as anodyne and dilute as people usually pop up and say - then what's the point of continuing as a Church School?)

I think we need to work as a community as a whole to instil common decent values and citizenship, whatever people's religious affiliation.

Tutter · 13/09/2006 10:43

haven't read the thread but agree with gobbledigook's last post.

Bugsy2 · 13/09/2006 11:11

Jalexandra, The faith school my kids go to is fantastic - absolute bees knees, couldn't wish for better. However, I don't think it is the job of the state to provide children with a faith education. I would rather all the schools in my area were fantastic & non-denominational. The current system is unfair & promotes exclusivity & discrimination. Education is supposed to be freely available for all. How can that be the case when some schools will not admit children because of their faith or lack of it?

Cappuccino · 13/09/2006 11:14

if someone could read the thing I linked to - it has points which are relevant to Blu's point

but no, no-one is actually going to take on new information about this, are they?

so we start the whole tired thing again

FioFio · 13/09/2006 11:18

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

Bugsy2 · 13/09/2006 11:24

Course not Cappucino - the wheel must be re-invented. Its one of the Mumsnet rules!

Northerner · 13/09/2006 11:37

Blimey. I was unaware that Faith Schools were such a bone of contention. My ds started school this week. We go to church on a sunday, he goes to my local C of E school. It's a fab school and it's over subscribed.

You folk who arent religious then why get worked up about not being able to send your kids there? You wouldn't want them to go to a religious school and if it wasn't religious it wouldn't be the same school and probably not as good anyway.

There are pleny of other state funded groups/sessions we are excluded from because of race/religion/language etc.

How can we be so welcoming of foreign religions in this country but so against our own religion? Baffles me.

niceglasses · 13/09/2006 11:47

Im surprised by the strength of feeling too. My children go to the local Catholic school. My husband is practising(ish) Catholic, I'm nothing really. The entry stipulation is

Siblings
Catchment
Faith

And there are lots of non Catholics at the school. Its a fairly working class area and the school isn't even full, so maybe its a different situation. But I echo what someone else said - I pay taxes for lots of things I'll never use, so don't quite see the point.

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