What is so bad about faith schools?

[Jalexandra]

After reading the 'anti sitting on a fence' thread, I was surprised by how many people had chosen faith schools as a subject they feel strongly about and was just wondering why.
I can't think of any good reason to be against them so maybe you can enlighten me.

No, people are still missing the point.

blu, give two examples of how faith schools in our area are divisive.

Well, I can only go on personal exp, but I have found it in no way devisive or exclusive. There are lots of non-Catholics and non-faith as far as I can see. In fact I find a lot more inclusive than schools in very middle class areas that pple are breaking their necks to get their kids in.

well quite, batters! have a long, detailed, well argued post inside my head which talks to the many inequalities in the state system - faith schools being only one example - but must, must, must get on with work now having wasted enough time on mn this am!

Exactamudno Batters - the so called 'good' schls round here are far far more exclusive with pple moving,renting, doing anything to get in, but of course, you can only do this if you have the money......

Although I am going to send my children to a catholic school I can see why some people are upset that they are paying for a school that
they feel they can't attend but surely that's no different to normal schools. In my area I have looked at a couple of other schools (non church) and 2 have said don't bother putting us down as you don't live in the catchment area, they have priority and we estimate we have more than our quota for next year!

BK:
In our area there is a significant population of muslim refugees from African countries, they will be concentrated in the state community schools, thus increasing polarisation, and those in schools which have religious admission criteria apart form a fast-growing section of their local community.
Not a factor in our area, but I think it is unhelpfully divisive in Blackburn that children from Muslim families, who may already be living in cultural and community 'mono' areas are increasingly separated by membership of Islamic state schools.

Not David Blunkett's greates move, mio. But what option did he have given the CoE / Catholic precedent?

I don't think Faith schools are bad, I don't think it's 'wrong' of anyone to send their children to one, i do think that, system-wise, it isn't the way for our state education to develop.

as to point 2, invariably anyone making the point that faith schools are divisive cites NI andor Blackburn/Oldham as examples - faith schools exist throughout the UK but you don't see such extremely divided communities distributed according to the distribution of faith schools, so i dispute that faith schools are a causal factor. i do agree that in those areas faith schools do not ameliorate pre-existing community issues.

as to example 1, not quite sure of your point. muslim refugees will go to community schools mainly and some faith schools - yes i agree they will, but where is the problem in that? i disagree about polarisation. i think our community is remarkably well-integrated in and peaceful given its diversity.

The schools in Tower Hamlets used to be very pol;arised because of a long-standing council housing policy which divided the catchment areas. Two boys schools, quarter of a mile apart were engaged in violent gang warfare which had a racial / religious basis. Of course the other social issues were inextricably intertwangled, as they always are, but the mix and match schools in the Tower Hamlets area were far more peaceful and engendering of mutual understanding then the polarised ones. OUr area is peaceful in terms of racial / religious tension on the streets, it's so mixed and diverse that the mix and match effect is prevalent for many but. ....long thoughts about class, new communitioes and new signals but must dash....
Not causal but potentially (and in some cases actually) exacerbating.

are those faith schools you are talking about in tower hamlets or were they community schools or a mixture of both?

One was Sir john cass CoE foundation but state funded now (and was almost exclusively white with some african caribbean), the other was Stepney Boys state community, almost exclusively bangladeshi muslim.

I think (hope!) they have sorted it out now. TYhis was 10 years ago - i used to work betwen the two schols!

so one of the schools involved was a community school not a faith school. in making these arguments you need to be very careful to distinguish between community schools with a homogenous population and faith schools - they are not the same.

The white parents could get their boys into Cass on grounds of baptism, and were desparate to avoid bangaldeshi kids...bangladeshi kids couldn't then compete fpor places as muslim...

On the other hand, the catholic girls school in the neihgjbouring borough had lots of muslim girls, whose parents were happioer fpr them to be in a catholic school rather than the nearest asbo-ridden state community!

It's Never black and white (sic).

REALLY going now....

No but the faith schools 'draw out' a section of the community into thier school, keaving the state community less equally representative, iyswim.

As the effect desscribed in my last post.

i agree there are too many local and social issues to draw facile conclusions, no matter how tempting it is to lay all these problems at the door of the lately fashionable target of faith schools.

i'll say again what i said below. i think there are numerous inequalities in the state system as it currently stands, and faith schools are only one example...

oh parp now i am really going.

But the good schools in the good areas with the parents killing themselves to get into aren't 'equally representive' either imo.

My biggest issue is that I don't think that the State should be funding religious schools. I do not see that as the job of the state at all. We live in a largely secular country, where the majority of people do not admit to being of any faith, yet we still have a proportionately high percentage of faith schools.
All schools should be non-denominational. Religion is a personal choice, if you want to educate your children accordingly then you do that outside of the school environment.

ok cappucino I have been reading that link on and off since you posted it. it's interesting, but I think I need to read it again to see if I am convinced by some of the arguments.
this struck me as an extraordinry piece of double think from such a clever man:
"The Church of England was responsible for educational provision across great tracts of the country well before universal statutory provision arrived. Its involvement in education was a completely natural outgrowth of its pastoral vocation to be present in every community. ....
Church schools [in such contexts i.e. deprived areas] are not recruiting agencies; they are there because of concern for a whole community, and nothing in their current policy or practice is meant to reduce that commitment by one iota."

hmmm, well. I don;t deny the important historical role played by faith schools in providing educational opportunities for those who would otherwise have been deprived of an education (though I would say - cynically perhaps - that their motives were not necessarily straightforwardly altruistic). And I don't deny either that many churches continue to do tremendously important work in deeply unfashionable areas - drug addiction, homelessness, etc.
BUT I fail to see how the stated aim of "concern for a whole community" can possibly be met by selecting/discriminating on the grounds of a parent's religion. Surely the policy of selecting school entrants on the grounds of religion is bound to run counter to that commitment?

Will read the rest of it again and see if I can come to any sensible conclusion....

bugsy2, i think that is the most valid and persuasive argument against faith schools. i don't believe further justification is required for anyone who is against faith schools. most of the other arguments put forward are exasperatingly specious - and unnecessary. imho of course.

ok i lied before when i said i was going nothing like a good faith schools ruckus

I could write an essay on what is wrong with OUR faith school, but shan't need to coz he is so out of there ASAP