Supporting 'more able' children

[roisin]

It is with some hesitancy that I am posting on here, especially since the recent disruption of a thread covering these subjects. But I have been posting on mumsnet for over 3 years, and it is for me the natural place to come to discuss issues which are exercising my thoughts.

I have been surprised at how affected I was by that recent thread, and how personally upset I felt by the thought that there were topics I could not raise on mumsnet.

Since then I have had email conversations with other posters on mumsnet, who feel similarly. So I would just please ask that you respect the views of anyone who posts on here, and if this situation does not affect you, then please don't post negative comments.

Ditto to what you have said.

Dd is Talented rather than gifted all round. He literacy skills are exceptional, as is her general knowledge. She is 'normal' in things like maths.

I (and her school) have gone down the route of breadth rather than acceleration. And I think that this has been helpful. She is kept stimulated, but it avoids her feeling 'singled out', or special. I have seen this in school, and it seems to make for well rounded, happy, individuals.

We had parents evening on Monday. As some of you know, ds1 is considered bright, and we are well aware that his literacy in particular is well above average. I didn't attend the meeting, dh went instead, and tbh I am still in shock, reeling from the descriptions of his academic achievements.

This is not boasting, it's not bragging. I feel extremely unsettled at being in this situation, and I would like to compare notes with others who have been through this. The description below, is just to give some sort of an idea of the situation.

DS1 is apparently 'streaks ahead' of his peers in every subject: literacy, numeracy, and science. (But not music or PE!) (He's 6, in yr2, one of the youngest in the class). He has a reading age (whatever that means) of 12. In Maths we didn't know he was anything more than 'above average'.

DS1 is aware that he is 'top of the class', but he just accepts it. He doesn't brag about it, and we've never discussed his abilities in anyway other than that some people are good at football, and he's particularly good at reading ..

His teacher is mid-50s, and is an extremely experienced, superb teacher. She told dh that she feels she no longer has any materials within her yr2 'extension' work, which will sufficiently challenge ds1 for the remaining term of this year. She thinks he is 'exceptional', and she hasn't been in this situation before. This sort of pronouncement has just left me feeling stunned and rather disquieted.

I would love ds1 to be average, to be normal. He has always been a bit quirky wierd. I don't know if this makes sense to anybody but I really do not feel at all happy about it all. Of course I am proud of his achievements, and I'm delighted that the school takes it seriously too. (They are drawing up some plans and proposals to ensure he is given appropriate projects, challenges and stimulation in class).

I would be very pleased to hear from anyone who can post anything to stop me feeling like this is just a huge burden.

Not sure I can add anything which will make you feel less burdened. DS1 is very bright. Not sure that he will always be brighter than many of his peers, but to date he has been. We had problems when he first started school, because his teacher wanted to teach at a level accessible to the majority of the class (the less able had assistants to help them), so taught at a level well below his capabilities. She was aware that he was bright (when she eventually took notice of our comments regarding the reading matter he was bringing home, she put him up from Level 3 to Level 7!) and seemed surprised when she had behavioural problems to deal with.

Anyway, I digress. Ask to see the school's Able Child policy (not sure if that's the correct title), as every school should have one. And then see if they are following that policy. Are there other children in his year who are considered exceptional? At DS1's school, they would separate out the brighter ones at certain times and give them quite different work from the others.

DS1 is also quite a quirky child, not given to making friends very easily (although he does have some good friends), socially rather awkward, and this can make him a bit of a target for other children. One of the other brighter children seems to resent the fact that DS1 is better than him at maths in particular and uses DS1's social awkwardness to humiliate him in front of other children. Not nice. DS1 doesn't brag about his abilities. In fact, he occasionally goes through miseries because he feels he is hopeless at everything except maths.

No real wise words, but ask to see the school's policy as a first step and then take it from there.

Might NAGC be of any help - here ? I think they do a helpline.

(Incidentally MIL was telling me it was originally set up by some friends of hers, 40 years ago now, because they found themselves in the weird position of giftedness being a problem.)

I'd be tempted to have a look at the National Association for Gifted Children Website. If you Google, it will come up.

There are lots of science websites that you could use for extension. The University of Utah has an excellent 'hands on' genetic section

gslc.genetics.utah.edu/units/activities/extraction/index.cfm

This is good
www.schoolscience.co.uk/content/index.asp

as is this
faculty.washington.edu/chudler/chmodel.html

These are all fun science sites that should strech him. The 'Main' museums National History etc have a lot as well.

We contacted the NAGC on the advice of a friend, whose children attended. They do newsletters and organise day events where all the children get together for sessions on a range of subjects. We only went twice. Most of the parents were incredibly pushy and wanted their child to be seen to be the brightest. They therefore made no effort to curb the most vociferous ones and the less assertive children scarcely got a look-in. This may not be the case for every group, but I can only comment using my own experience.

Also, I got the impression from your post that you were more concerned with the school dealing with his abilities rather than trying to seek extra-curricular stuff to augment? At 6, I would be tempted to hold back on the extra-curricular stuff until he shows a need/desire to be stretched. Out of school, children just need to be children and chill out.

I was in this situation myself at primary school, so coming at it from a rather different angle.Not bragging - I'm certainly not a genius, though went to Cambridge and have a PhD, but not Nobel-prizewinning or prodigy type! My primary school put me up a year to deal with it, but it really wasn't ideal looking back - I got bullied a lot and its left me with lots of sociability issues I only really resolved at university (and I'm still very sensitive about popularity issues etc). I remember going to a few NAGC weekend gettogethers, but never really knew what they were at the time - just more NCT type coffee mornings as far as I was concerned.
I read masses, and teachers were generally quite good at extension stuff - I think my parents had quite long discussions with them.
If I were you I'd mainly concentrate on giving him plenty to interest him outside school - encourage interests he can research, a hobby, etc. (computing? tropical fish? music lessons?)
I wouldn't worry that you need to 'make him reach his full potential' or anything - so long as he doesn't get too bored he shoudl be fine, and may well not be a genius, just bright. I was always streets ahead at maths cos dad liked maths and taught me himself - classes were easy, but i don't remember getting too bored and didn't get disruptive. I did keep a novel hidden in my desk though - maybe the teacher could be encouraged to turn a blind eye to reading if he finishes his work? Or set him to write a poem on the subject or something like that when he's finished?
HTH, m.

Hey - thanks you guys!

I've always avoided websites/groups like NAGC, because I've always assumed they would be stacked full of pushy parents from hell We're also a long way from anywhere, so it's very unlikely that there are any nearby groups anyway. We love NHM and Science Museum, but unfortunately we are now at the other end of the country.

Freckle - how old is your ds1? Why do you think he is 'socially rather awkward'? (Ds1 is too - but omit the 'rather'!)

I'm not actually looking for resources - he just laps up anything and everything, so it's not hard to find things to keep him occupied. He sleeps/reads long hours, so on school days hardly has any time just to "be" anyway! I'm also completely happy with what school will do for him - they really are fantastic.

I think I just wanted to post and have someone say that they're in this situation too, that I'm not pushy parent, and that sometimes having a child like this is not always a blessing.

Roisin, I really don't understand why not. I read very precociously as a child - very, very fast, encylopaedias, novels and my mother's psychology books at your ds's age. I liked being able to read and never got teased for it. I did sometimes get teachers say I couldn't possible do what I had done or read what I had read, but I just thought they were being stupid. I have a very low boredom threshold though, so did quite poorly in exams because the courses couldn't hold my interest - I got great grades in the A levels I did in one year but average ones in the ones I did over two years. That's why being a journalist suits me! If he likes to read and is happy at school, I really don't know why you feel upset. As for being odd, zillions of very successful and happy adults are a bit odd. In fact, there is stacks of research saying that eccentric people rate far higher for happiness than their more conformist peers - probably because they don't care much what people think of them and follow their heart. As for being labelled 'gifted' there is also research showing that can really backfire on kids. I think he sounds great.

aloha you sound just like me. I was a voracious reader/writer and was put up a year aged 5, still made no difference I was still bored by the spelling/reading etc bits of school and just wanted to go off on my own and read "proper" stuff.

Thanks for your post aloha - wise words - made me smile. I like the phrase eccentric ... fits him to a tee.

I dislike the term 'gifted' too. School seem to need to assign to him a label, in order to justify treating him slightly differently. But we don't use that term to him or to anyone else.

I agree with Aloha - I don't think it should be regarded as a huge burden. I was also a very keen, fast, early reader - at primary school in Ireland, we got new textbooks at the start of terms and I had always read all mine by the end of the first couple of weeks, making the rest of term rather boring, so I compensated by voraciously reading whatever else I could find. My mum and dad had very few books, and there wasn't a library, so this was quite a challenge!

When I was at secondary school my parents did get told ridiculous things like "She is streets ahead of me", and "She is producing degree level work" (then went to uni and discovered this was not so much of a compliment as I thought...!).

So given that he is happy at school and has a good teacher, I think you should just be delighted in him! Hopefully, unlike my parents, you can procure all the books for him that he needs to stimulate him.

He sounds lovely, btw - you are lucky!

I just wanted to say Roisin, how glad i am that your ds's school are taking this seriously and making arrangements for him.
My dd1 is 6 and although i wouldn't say she is gifted, she is definbatly one of the brighter pupils in her class.
When she was in Reception her hard work was encouraged and rewarded with stickers, awards e.t.c.
Unfortunatly now she is in yr1 this has all stopped. Her teacher has admitted to me that she tends to focus all of her praise and rewards on the children that don't do so well, giving them lots of stickers e.t.c.
This has affected my dd alot, to the extent that she did for a while doubt her own reading and writing ability.
I did explain to her teacher that IMO all children should be encouraged and rewarded wether they were high acheivers or not.
Her response was that she usually just leaves the ones who can acheive to their own devices and admittly did sometimes forget to praise them.
She did promise to reward my dd more often, but this has not happened and my dd stiull comments on it saying "well my work must have been rubbish because i didn't get a sticker".

It nice to see that your ds's school are doing their best by him. Good Luck

When my brother was in primary school he was constantly getting told off for not paying attention. It turned out that he was bored stiff because he was several years ahead of his peers in all academic areas. We ended up at the NAGC and my db went to their 'club' every weekend. I was jealous, so marched up to the organiser and asked to join too (I was not quite 6yo). I think that in those days they were very inclusive because she didn't try to assess my 'intelligence', just asked me a question or two and said 'OK, if your parents agree'. Although it was quite clear to me from very early on that many of these kids were miles ahead of me, this was never a problem and I was a member for about 14 years, the last 4 as a volunteer. There were many other 'ordinary' siblings of gifted children at the club as well.

It wasn't at all like an NCT Coffee Morning. We had about 3 hours of intense and varied activity every Saturday, not just academic but physical and artistic as well.

BTW, Binkie, the people who started it up were truly lovely, and lifesavers for our whole family, not just for my db's academic career.

Nutcracker, that's outrageous! I think such an attitude should be discussed with the head of dept, or head teacher.

Roisin, I would be delighted if my son was as bright as your boy. My favourite children (ie children of friends) are clever eccentrics - they make for very enjoyable company IMO. My friend's little girl is such a funny little thing - very imagininative, clever and yes, slightly odd - old-fashioned is a term people use a lot - but she's also very popular and really loves doing the things she loves iyswim. I think that's a great talent in life.

Your ds sounds very bright Aloha!

I read somewhere once that although you cannot assume that because a child talks late, he/she is not bright, the opposite is in fact true - if your child starts to talk early, that is a reliable indicator that he/she is bright.

Well, he's certainly not going to be an athlete!

DS1 is now 10. He gets on much better at school and socially too, but it's been a bit of a long haul. I think that, as they progress through the school, the teachers are able to group the children much better, and he is now set work which is more commensurate with his abilities. I'm not sure I would call him gifted or a genius, but he is a bright child.

Wrt his social skills, these too have progressed as he's got older. I think a lot of it is to do with being the oldest of 3 boys (younger 2 very social animals and make friends very easily). DS1 is more like his dad, very comfortable with his own company, not dreadfully gregarious, what some might term "a bit of a loner" (without the negative aspects that that term conjures up). He just isn't a natural leader or the type of boy who attracts lots of friends - you know the type. He feels this a bit and tries to "buy" friends (invited some boys to his party this year and I only found out afterwards that he'd invited them so that they would be his friends and not tease him ) This is all part of growing up and learning how to deal with those around us. At the end of the day, I comfort myself with the thought that his father found someone as wonderful as me despite his solitary character, so DS1 at least has a fighting chance of doing similarly

it seems really odd to me that there seems to be a subgroup of bright/gifted children (I would say boys more than girls) that are socially awkward etc. DS1 is 10, accelerated a yr in yr2 and top of class again BUT terrible at sport (not just doesnt like it but hopeless) and just doesnt seem to have the social skills needed to make friends in his age group (sounds v.like your DS roisin).His yr1 teacher actually said he would become a eccentric professor (could be worse-mad professor I suppose) He has one really good friend (very similar to himself) but thats it. Not unpopular at school just doesnt seem to respond to friendship offers. Why are they like this? DS2 is also bright but has loads of friends,can play football etc. Cant be upbringing because I have 2 other children. Not hot housing etc, we dont chain him to a desk, spends no more time doing homework or on the computer than any other child of his age so what makes them "eccentric"-Odd-isnt it! Sorry if bit rambly but have spent long time over last few yrs wondering about this.
And yes you do feel burdened by having a child like this. I think its the worry about them not fitting in/having lots of friends etc. Am assuming that will improve with age.

What a lovely thread! My dd1 sounds a lot like some of your children learnt to read very quickly, and is a long way ahead of the rest of her class (v. mixed inner-city primary school). My mum described her recently as as 'quite a singular little girl' which sums it up nicely she does have friends, and is becoming more confident, but can be very intense and sometimes a little lacking in social skills, as well as being very indecisive and disorganised, ferociously competitive, and getting upset very quickly when things didn't go according to her plan.

We had a miserable year in Year 2 (tough teacher, very dull curriculum, no extra effort made for her), and looked into sending her to one of the pushy London private schools at 7+. She passed the exam without any problem, but dh and I were somewhat put off by the very intense atmosphere of it -- there were a lot of v. pushy parents and lots of homework etc. I felt she needed more support than she would get at the private school with regard to organisation and social skills.

In the end we turned the place down and kept her at the primary school. She's now nearly nine and although she still complains about being bored at school, she has blossomed in terms of her social skills and is much more confident and better at persevering with things she finds difficult. I'm sure she would be more academically advanced at the big private school, but I think there would have been a price to pay in terms of her social and emotional development.

In terms of extra challenge, we do projects out of school, have worked through most of Year 6 maths, visit museums, theatre, the Royal Institution (www.rigb.org), she now learns the flute, and has finally learnt to swim competently. She also has a tutor who works with her mainly on English and following her interests, which she enjoys enormously.

It sounds as if you have a good school and a good teacher, who regards your ds as a challenge rather than a problem. Not sure how reading my ramblings is going to help you, except to make the point that however clever they are, they're still little children and that maybe doing normal little kids stuff is going to be more useful to them in the long run than lots of extra academic input.

We have a slightly odd situation in that ds1 is very bright but also dyslexic - seemed to us to be very intelligent in conversation and in general knowldge and application of knowledge, but seemed to his primary school to be below average because of reading and spelling difficulties. In Yr 6 we finally took him to the Dyslexia Institute: the moment when the psychologist's report was read over to him, and he discovered that he actually was highly intelligent and not stupid was absolutely wonderful to see: he just glowed.
He has had problems with socialising, and was bullied for quite a long time: not happy about this, but he has developed into someone with a strong sense of right and wrong and with a sense that sticking to what is right is more important than popularity. In yr 7 now at local comp: just waiting to hear what the teachers think of him, as I think he has been coasting while starting to enjoy a more social life.

None of my 3 kids is hugely social: they all get on really well together and I think see home as their place where they don't especially want to entertain other people but do what they want to do. I worry a bit about this, but on the other hand its good that they enjoy their own company.

I can't really speak from experience here. I was not exceptionally ahead at school and neither are my sons. Aslo, the school seems to cope just fine with my sons - they do not need any more challenging work. So I really am gatecrashing this thread

As I mentioned on another thread, I grew up with a boy who was exceptional. He was fine up to 16 or so, a lovely person, then went to pieces. Who is to say if brightness was the cause? even so, I would dread having a child who was exceptionally bright - given my experience of my friend (extreme I know) I do see all sorts of potential problems.

If I had been you, roisin, I would have felt blind panic if a 50 year old teacher with tons of experience had told me they had never met a child so ahead as my son. I am glad the school are supporting you and glad you have posted about it.

As for socialising at school, I was bad at this at secondary school but really not unhappy. It was my choice. I never felt the need to be popular as I had friends, interests and a loving family outside school. Looking back I also think I was immature for my age.

My oldest son is a little like me - IMO he is a bit immature. It is this that hinders his social development. He has enough friends, but easily gets upset, is easily wound up and led on, gets teased, and is one of the only boys still to openly cry at school in his class.

In his case, he is academically ahead a little, but this doesn't mean he is emotionally ahead at all. I think he suffers because some people, seeing him cope well with class work, expect him to be more grown up than he is.

I really liked your post frogs, btw.

Hi!
After the recent thread I looked at tutoring out of school hours for my son, this seems to have filled a huge gap in his life now - he feels expanded and that he is using his creativity and brains rather than just following along.
We have realised that private education will be non affordable unless he succeeds in getting into a means tested fees school, this would mean him being a boarder a long way from home - not sure I can accept this yet..
I am hoping with the move to Lincoln, his entry into a grammar school system, that the opportunity for him will be there to get ahead.
DS currently goes out of class for literacy and numeracy he is highly talented at maths and is working a GCSE syllabus informally but alarmingly he is very very able, the exernal tutor says he could sit the exam now and easily pass it well. He's 10.
But I'm not into all that really, after all he's still a kid whose main hobby should be playing out with his mates! I am trying to encourage his though with extra hobbies and projects and music, rather than heighten his level of schooling... Hopefully this will keep him safe until secondary school when he will be able to exceed and excel with more room to do so.
It is a huge responsibility and not at all an easy one to know what to do with...

and ditto miggy!!!
DS is 10 lost if he does not have that one friend, but its him... he doesn't get on with many kids his gae as he thinks so differently - his head teacher descibed DS as a mad professor type as well...
Spooky - we turned down accelerating him up a year as he wasn;t "socially mature" enough to thrive there. Seeing him now I'm even more relieved!