Supporting 'more able' children

[roisin]

It is with some hesitancy that I am posting on here, especially since the recent disruption of a thread covering these subjects. But I have been posting on mumsnet for over 3 years, and it is for me the natural place to come to discuss issues which are exercising my thoughts.

I have been surprised at how affected I was by that recent thread, and how personally upset I felt by the thought that there were topics I could not raise on mumsnet.

Since then I have had email conversations with other posters on mumsnet, who feel similarly. So I would just please ask that you respect the views of anyone who posts on here, and if this situation does not affect you, then please don't post negative comments.

Hi SG, 'met' you on the other thread...
Have no experience of this, specifically, (someone who can help will be along in a minute), but darling, you hang in there for your little girl who sounds like a real sweetie in need of a hug rather than a SN assessment.
Bloomin' label mad, they are.

Hi Scaltygirl - don't know a great deal at all - just been interested in this from the perspective of having been an academic but socially awkward little girl myself! I do feel that the SENCO assessment wasn't very thorough, if they only took 1 playtime as a snapshot. I agree that social anxiety would be as viable an explanation for your daughter's difficulties, if not more so, than ASD. I think it is pretty likely that a sensitive, intelligent child lacking in confidence would have some peer group difficulties - standing out from the group in anyway is never easy at school. Is there any vested interest funding wise in the school obtaining a diagnosis for your dd, do you think? Have you asked whether there are other children with this diagnosis at school?

There's not usually any financial gain in having an ASD diagnosis as high functioning children will be expected to have their needs met from the school SN budget.

I still think the best thing may be to go through the assessments. Really over-diagnosis is not a big problem in the UK and I do know plenty of people who have been through the procedures to be told that nothing much is wrong. Providing you are seeing well qualified people who understand development then you will probably find out a lot. The school will have very little input. By well qualified I mean that you need to be seeing people like developmental paeds and clinical psychs, not ed psychs.

Froot, thanks for replying - Venice sounds great! We 'did' London last year, Paris this; so I was wondering about Rome or Venice next year. Where did you stay?

Ds1 loves the Dream Master and Roman Mysteries stories too ... Btw did you/ds know Caroline Lawrence has a great website, and loves getting - and replying to - emails from fans?

Current probs with my ds1 are mainly social skills. He is just seems to lack maturity in these areas. He also appears to feel emotions (excitement, fear, anger, frustration etc.) more strongly than other children, and still struggles to control these (though he is a lot better than he used to be).

The possible assessment comes as a result of a chat to his teacher, who has no formal concerns about him in the classroom, but understands where we are coming from. She thinks the difficulties are closely related to his abilities - I am undecided. But she has personal knowledge of an ed psych who used to work locally (we are in Cumbria), who has specialised in work with G&T children and advises on provision for them in schools. And she suggested that it might be worthwhile pursuing some sort of consultation with him. This all happened just before the holidays, so we are still waiting to see if he will agree to see ds1 (and how much it will cost!) I'm not primarily looking for an assessment of his abilities: we (and school) are well aware of where he is, and I don't really see the benefit of any sort of labelling or quantification of that, (and it tends to freak me out!) But we are wanting to consider his life 'outside the classroom', and ways in which he can learn to function better in non-structured environments. Watch this space!

Thanks for your considered and descriptive posts SG; Your post about yourself and your dh struck a chord with me. At some point I did one of this online scoring things for ds1, and he scored pretty high for ASD indicators ... but then I did it for me and I scored only slightly less than him! Now whilst I am by no means a party animal, and I don't particularly enjoy big social occasions, I'm sure I don't belong on the autistic spectrum?!

It certainly seems as though you and the SENCO are viewing the situation completely differently. You know your dd much better than them, and I'm sure you would be aware of any serious problems. Do you have tiny doubts yourself? Or none at all? Do you have a timescale for the assessment?

Are you in the UK state school system? So she'll be going into yr1? (Infant or primary school?) We have been very fortunate in the positive attitude our school has in providing challenges to every child at an appropriate level. I hope she has a great teacher next year, and access to appropriate resources and challenges.

Sorry - that was loads of questions, wasn't it? And I'm about to switch off and won't be back on for
2 days ... But I promise I will come back to this.

The school will probably send a report or something scaltygirl. When ds1 was diagnosed he was at nursery and his nursery manager sent a report and came to the big diagnosis meeting (firmly on my side- and a big support).

Have you read "martian in the playground" byt Claire Sainsbury (or is it salisbury). It's written by a very high functioning/gifted girl with AS. Might be worth reading before the assessment as it might give you some ideas of questions to ask.

BTW scatygirl the children I know who are MMR damaged have regressed dramatically following it, and have had a lot of severe physical symptoms as well- which started immediately after it and continued for years.

Currently things are going so mad on the assessment/label front that I can't help wondering where it will end. When our children start going to nightclubs and parties and falling in love, will there be 'officials' on hand to oversee?? DD- 'I really fancy so-and-so. He's gorgeous.' Official Attractiveness Assessor - 'Actually, he's not. Our Standardised Assessment reveals that his eyes are slightly too close together and his chin is 0.356 mm bigger than the norm...'

What I'm trying to say is... how ridiculous is it that Scaltygirl has this adorable daughter, who wants to join in and do the best she can, writes breath-taking poetry and doesn't approve of Goldilocks (have myself done extensive study into fairy tales as part of my degree, and since, and would say this is simply an intelligent and perceptive response)and the system won't accept it. We're all being pushed into becoming a homogenised mass in virtually every area of our lives - the massive surge in cosmetic surgery so peole can all look the same, to this more worrying trend in our schools to make our children think and behave the same.

Sorry, no help at all, just ranting,but have been thinking about this all night and getting cross. The poem brought tears to my eyes, SG. She has more natural talent in her little finger than I have managed to cultivate in 34 years. xxx

Sorry. Posted that very quickly, and know think it sounds like I'm over-simplifying this very complex issue. I'm really not - apologies to all if it sounded that way.

hAve to disagree - I know far more cases where children have needed access to more support for which they need a diagnosis (I prefer to think of it as a signpost rather than a label).

Scaltygirls dd hasn't been diagnosed yet. I think is worth going for the assessment (especially as its with a developmental pead and they are generally good) as she's likely to get an accurate response. i actually don't know of any child where the parents have disagreed with the need for a diagnosis that has been given (in the UK). I do know many many children who have been missed for years. And I do know several children who have been assessed and told there's nothing wrong. Going for assessment does not equal dagnosis.

Clare Sainsbury mentioned below- is a very bright Oxford graduate whose school life was misery because she remained undiagnosed throughout it. It's particualrly hard to get assessments for high functioning children and as scalty has had concerns its worth following up the assessment just to rule them out. Assessments with paeds are very difficult t get - so if you get offered one - and have concerns however slight- always worth following up.

sorry 3p's posted before I saw your response. sorry if I sound stroppy- its just that unless you are in the position where your child needs a label (although I hate that word) its difficult to see why they are so important. not syaing that scaltygirl's dd does though.

I don't think it is very surprisingly that an unusually intelligent and sensitive child would have a hard time coping with the average playground. They can be nasty places. And I'm sure she finds some of the children hard to relate to as they simply won't be on her level.
I'd go for the assessment, as it might well turn out that the pead will simply say that she is bright, and not ASD. She sounds a very interesting and rewarding child to have and, I would have thought, a real treat for a dedicated teacher. I would have though that teachers would jump for joy to have such an intelligent, poetical child in their class. I'm actually quite shocked that they see her as a problem and not a wonderful opportunity.

Bless you, love, know I sounded flippant and air-headed . My pet hate is the way the media/society blah blah tries to make us all the same and feel guitly if we're not. Trinny and Susannah. Cult of celebrity, etc, etc. Feel eccentricity and individuality sould be encouraged and celebrated - but of course there are circumstances where this needs examining more closely, and where support may be extremely helpful.

Sorry for muddying the waters. Good luck with the assessment, scalty.

scaltygirl, loved your daughter's poem and read it with awe. Agree with you and aloha that a 5 year old capable of writing like that is almost bound to feel different at times from her playground friends.

I too would go for the assessment, just to get an opinion. My experience with my own sons does not mirror yours exactly, but I am familiar with the feeling of teachers saying one thing about your child and you feeling another.

When my oldest son in year 1 and 2 was SEN for behaviour at school (low level, not needing formal assessment)and at the end of year two, the SENCO wanted to up the level he was on, although I felt his behaviour had improved. He changed school early in year 3 and the new school took him off their SEN list wihin 3 weeks. Different teachers, different schools, different opinions. My younget sons nursery teachers told me my son was beyond normal limits of liveliness when he was 3 years old. I disagreed but had his hearing tested, did what the nursery wanted. Even though he had passed his 3 year check with the HV, the nursery made me go back to have another one. They then got my HV up to the nursery to observe my son (this was done behind my back). The HV said my son was 'normal' and the nursery at last accepted it.

I've learned that teachers' opinions can vary. Sometimes I believe there is a bit of a hidden agenda when educational institutions press for your child to be assessed. Of course it's important that schools pick up on problems, so they have to be seen to be going through the motions, but don't be surprised if the assessment comes back 'normal'.

Scaltygirl - your daughter sounds just like mine (and about the same age too). No-one has suggested she has ASD - her teacher just sees her as very bright and an exceptionally good reader (she reads absolutely anything she can lay her hands on). She is also shy and was described in her school report as "very individual". Her artwork is also very good.

I started school with a reading age of 10, and was also (and still am!) fairly antisocial. But I wouldn't say I was any great brain. I see DD1 as similar to myself at the same age - she has started well and will probably level out later. Hopefully she will achieve more than me

sorry to butt in, but I'm interested to read that some of your children are having trouble or are not interested in, sports.

Have you considered introducing them to 'non-mainstream' sports? My brother hated sport at school, and was always considered socially awkward. In the last few years he has discovered outdoor sports. He loves hillwalking and scrambling , and has recently discovered rock climbing and kayaking. He's now very keen to try sailing. I think all of these rely less on the good old British 'team spirit' and IMHO, are a bit more intelligent! All of them are really quite technical, unlike swatting a ball around a field!

My DD1 is good at sport - not sure about team stuff - she is very competitive and gets very upset when she drops the potato in the potato on a spoon race. She tends to win most of her running races as she is twice the height of most of her peers (she is almost 6, but is in clothes for a 9/10 year old). Should also add that I was also very pleased with the progress she has made at school as she didn't really learn to speak English until she was three.