Why do some parents think private school at primary is a waste of money.... but are secretly saving for secondary?

[Tallandgracefulmum]

AIBU as my little one is starting prep school in Sept. I was asked by a friend at DD's nursery my plans, said private all the way and was told I would be wasting my money and should save it for secondary when it matters.

I hate this ..most parents I know would send kids private all the way through but cannot afford it so are saving for secondary. But to be honets if your not used to paying shed loads monthly for schooling, you will not suddently 7 years later ( and higher fees) start doing it for secondary.

What some people don't seem to get is that some parents value educational experience over material possessions or fancy homes. This friend in question said she will use the money she saves to provide education experiences for her children and give them a lump sum for uni.

My thoughts are she just can't afford it and wants to make me feel bad for spending my hard earned money.

How many parents actually compare a range of private school fees, then calculate how much it would cost to send one child then save the relevant monthly amount ready to give each off spring at 18? Doesn't happen. What's wrong in providing the best educational experience you can afford for your kids without others constantly telling me I am wasting my money.

FWIW I can understand private school bashers who hate all forms of private schooling, but not those who bash primary but would send kids to secondary in a heartbeat!

Btw it did happen to my DF - her DD2 was refused a place at the SI she already had DD1 at because she didn't make the grade.

I was just writing about the history. For example should prefernce at university entrance be given to someone from the small private school where most girls did not do A levels over the SE pressure cooker grammar which sends lots to Oxbridge?

Yes, some people at state schools have a strong work ethic, of course. However the larger numbers of second generation immigrant children in my children's private schools over the white population reflects that ethic - all that family spare income going into the private school place to ensure the next generation do even better.

From year 3 they do a form of lacrosse. I am certainly not a lacrosse player. It just happened to be mentioned above. it has done her no harm. Her current employer when she made the England team included it in company international news. It has done her no harm. Fastest game on two legs they say....

As I have often said most women don't earn enough to pay schools and half the children at good universities come from state schools so I don't think there's any reason people should beat themselves up about schools issues. Most of us just do our best. I certainly felt very pleased to be able to pay school fees right the way through at all ages and I still have several more years to fund (now in year 27 of continuously paying school fees - I await my medal from the state for having relieved it of the cost of educating so many children).

You're right that lots of immigrants tend to have strong work ethic, and often pass this on to their kids, but they don't only exist in private schools! My dd's state primary is extremely diverse and full of aspirational parents.

You're right that many women don't earn enough to pay for private schooling. Others do, but choose not to. And presumably the same goes for fathers...

"Not one person on here has convinced me that the extra curricular activities offered by state primary school .... is superior to that which "elite" prep,schools offer."

2 points, which i have made before:

1. For a state school, it is not really the in-schoool extra-curricular provision that matters. It is state school + community provision that you need to compare to the 'all in one' package of the private school - DD in dance has a MUCH better provision through state + community, DS in football, when he played it with the local prodfessional team's academy had much better provision than any private school through school + community, even DS in cricket, a traditionally private school sport, plays on equal terms with private school pupuils at the local community club.

1. 'Elite' private schools are a vanishingly small proportion of the whole. I have no problem with the fact that

Extra curricular activities are a red herring unless like my DC1 DF you are poor in grades but good at sport and this got a place at an average Uni.

My DC are not sporty /musical - they tried several extra curricular activities but didn't enjoy them.
They are well read, sociable and so we ditched the pressure of continuous activities.
After school they relaxed and read, read and read some more.
They run and swim and ride for pleasure.

This worked well as at exam time they weren't overloaded and did very well.
At Uni interviews extra curricular activities weren't mentioned at all.

Abra1d

"If you cut out this group and just looked at middle-class and/or aspirational families in state and private schools, I wonder how much of a difference would remain?"

As a purely anecdotal aside, I am one of 3 children. We have the same parents (who were 1st generation MC, from WC parents: products of grammar schools and university scholarships, impoverished but highly intelligent), but very different secondary education: 1 wholly state comp (secondary modern until the year before), 1 same state comp to 16, private 6th form, 1 private all through.

We have almost identical A-levels, went to exactly equivalent universities to do similar subjects, and got very similar final degrees.

I do think that if you compare children from similar backgrounds, the differences between schools become very small, and the differences in final destinations equally small - like our parents, we are all well educated, highly intelligent and in public service / creative type jobs that leave us less than rich!

Where are all these wonderful schools offering every conceivable activity from fly fishing to wind surfing? Over the last 15 years I've met literally thousands of children from every conceivable background, ascertaining hobbies and interest is part of the initially, assessment, we've lived in four counties have sent our DS's to school in four counties both state and independent and have friends, acquaintances and work colleagues in both sectors from Margate to Bristol up to Warwick and down to Essex and of course London not one in the state sector has ever mentioned that there state school offers extra ordinary extra curricular activities, none say "oh Alex is not here today as he learnt to fly fish/ride/fence/do archery/curl/tiddlywinks at school and he's competing in a national competition". Many of course do compete/dance/sing/ play the double bass at a wide variety of levels but not one has ever said they started at school. Many tell me their children are achieving wonderful exam results/Uni entry from their state school, that their DC's are entering math/physics/chemistry Olympiads but no unusual sports outside of the mainstream type of stuff.
But Ilove extra curricular activities aren't just for UCAS forms or hoping to boost you chance of a place at university.

happygardening - it does kind of depend where in the country the state school is as to what weird and wonderful offerings there might be... maybe that particular school has an Eton-educated teacher or parent in it, trying to inflict his weird and wonderful school-acquired hobbies on a generation of state schoolers.

Extra curricular is not restricted to sports. And for state school educated kids extra curricular activities do not have to be provided by the school (although they can be and are often provided at least partly in conjunction with schools). I don't believe anyone here has said their state school educated kids have better opportunities than your DS - some of us believe that our kids have some opportunities (not all obviously) on a par with private school educated kids (including your DS, even though he is at a secondary school not a junior school). This seems impossible for you to comprehend, especially the bit about kids being able to do things outside school when they don't board.

I agree with HG and I think that extra curricular activities are important. Not all DCs can go to super selective schools in either the state or private sectors. One of my DCs would fall into this category. Their participation in numerous extra curricular activities played a very important part in their academic success. This was because their success at various activities gave them confidence which transferred to the classroom and academic subjects. This coupled with the smaller classes and extra SEN help meant that they reached their potential. Yes, this was at a private school and one of the ones that usually get criticised on mumsnet.

The problem with really niche sports and activities is, if you want to enjoy them into adulthood, it might end up quite annoying that not many people can do them, there aren't many venues that can host them, and it costs a lot of money, therefore, to continue with them. As for fly fishing.... I think I'll just fall asleep now, then.

I don't tend to tell my friends about the extra curricular activities any of my kids are doing (yawn a minute for anyone else I would have thought), but none the less there are a wide range of activities on offer at ds2's school. Had a conversation with ds2 a few weeks ago when I asked whether he was going to join surf club (because it's being run during the summer term by the guys who take ds1 surfing) - no surprise to me he said no (he's not keen on surfing). Ds2 does a club most lunchtimes and sometimes after school (not so much after school -although he was doing something on Tuesday and Friday after school and at school but I wasn't sad to see the back of those because he already has out of school after school activities on Mondays Tuesdays Wednesdays plus most of Saturday - it's enough/too much).

As I said I know loads of ex 'top' public school boys. None of them were doing anything extra curricular at a higher level than friends from regular schools - although no doubt they did a lot of sport or whatever at school.

I agree with those saying that if it's important to families that their kids access extra curricular activities - they'll do it - and they'll organise it themselves if school doesn't offer it. Although ime schools aren't quite the wasteland of opportunity you seem to think.

Of course they aren't happy but I know a fair few who have made the mistake of doing the all singing,all dancing look how accomplished my DC are - yet they barely pick up a book and actually read for pleasure.
They have no time to think.

And can someone explain to me why it's so much better to do an activity at school rather than out of school? I don't really understand that (other than less hassle for the parent obviously).

Well, I think it's a lot to do with less hassle.

No Herc it's not impossible for me to comprehend, because that is not what I'm arguing. Others have said that their state primary offers the same breadth and depth and extra curricular activities (not just sport) as an "elite" prep school does. This is answer they've given as to why not all pay for primary but wait till secondary, because some top state primaries offer the same as some independent preps.
Obviously many parents choose to send their DC's to primary school and pursue a myriad of activities outside of school in their own time, for those living in some areas there is no limit on what they can take their DC's off too after school and I admire those who are this committed and I've no doubt that they can access things at the highest level. But some on here ascertain this is also available in their individual primary schools in lunch breaks or as an after school activity. This is not my experience or anyone Ive met ever inside or outside school.
In answer to the OP's question some people wish to pay for breadth and depth at prep level and have it within the school day and some don't want this and choose not to pay even if they could at primary level, they accept that primaries can't offer such a broad curriculum but they are happy to supplement/create the education they want, to create the level breadth and depth they think their DC needs but may change their minds and pay at senior level. I don't find this difficult to comprehend or it to be a particularly earth shattering or a controversial view but some seem to think it is.

Less hassle for the child as well because they do not have to spend time travelling.

Less time travelling?! Lots of private day school parents get their kids to travel miles to get to school in the first place!

I never understand these threads. Those of we women who earn enough to pay school fees are very happy with the private schools our children attend. Plenty of parents can't or don't want to pay and they all aim to pick the best school for their child. The only competition we need is when our children compete for the few good jobs there are or university places. State school parents happy with their choice can go away happy and private school paying parents can be happy with their choice too.

I see a massive range of benefits to my children from the fact they attend/attended private schools. Other parents don't see that. That's all fine. The fewer who see the benefits the less competition my children have for places at their schools - all to the good.

Happy, no they haven't. They have said their state educated children can access wide ranging extra curricular activities within and outside school. They have noted some of the activities you've mentioned (and you haven't actually mentioned many) and said that those are available. Why do you find this so difficult to comprehend. I bet there are activities your senior school DS can do that primary school educated kids elsewhere can't do - real tennis maybe or polo. But there might also be activities their kids can do - perhaps dragon boat racing or gig rowing - that your DS can't do. And even if he could do them, that would be irrelevant to the central fact which is that you said all the extra curricular activities your DS could do were at a higher level than any state school educated kid could access and that is unlikely to be true. Because national level music and sports opportunities are not restricted to private school kids. State school kids can and do access them.

Less hassle, I wheel my DS off twice a week to two outside sports club specialising in his sport during his holidays one is 70 miles away the other 35 I have to sit there for 2 1/2 hours whist he does it I couldn't do this every week of the year. More opportunities at school than here in Smalltownsville and it's surrounding area, we're rural and have no public transport at all he would completely rely on us to do anything. It's good to do things with your school friends, expensive equipment is often provided by the school as a matter of course, activities in the school day rather than after school when you or they are tired. Makes sense to me but others I'm sure feel differently.
No saintly I don't spend my every waking moment discussing extra curricular activities with my friends but Im not oblivious to what my friends DC's do or where or how they do it. I'm obviously very interested in hobbies of the children I work with.

And can someone explain to me why it's so much better to do an activity at school rather than out of school? I don't really understand that (other than less hassle for the parent obviously).

I actually think it's a disadvantage for the child to do everything at school. Much better to mix in different circles and make friends outside of school in my opinion.

DD's state primary has a huge array of extra-curricular clubs on offer, including some weird and wacky ones! Music provision is particularly strong. However, it's true that the sports on offer are all fairly mainstream - there's a good range, but nothing terribly out if the ordinary. Fortunately, I'm not too bothered as to whether she gets a chance to do lacrosse or rowing, I'm just happy that she enjoys the sports that she does.

Ah no I'm comparing ds2's state secondary activities (which is fair enough to compare with a top prep as he's year 7 - so the same age).

He went to an independent primary (not a top one though and it only goes up to 11 when most children move into the state sector, so the sort despised on here) which offered a wide range of activities from fencing to martial arts to drama to tag rugby to gardening to photography to whatever else floats your boat- even though it's not top notch by any means. Ds3 goes into school early most mornings to take part in a club an does after school activities there as well. if anything he does too many imo (which is why I told him to stop signing up for everything). I know the local state primaries all offer fencing and then a variety of other clubs. I was thinking about moving ds3 recently so had a nose and they all seemed to offer enough.

Apart from travel time - which isn't an issue where we live tbh - the only activities we have to travel any sort of distance for are horse riding and surfing, and they're not something that most schools in any sector offer - I'm still not understanding what's so great about doing everything at school. I can see pros and cons with both doing activities at school and out of school (I like the other non-school friendships the boys make from out of school activities for starter).

Herc to quote "What do you think you're getting at private primaries that state primaries can't provide?"

Oh cross posted with you Jinsei - but yes some of ds2's closest friends are from out of school activities (of particular importance if you're at a single sex school as well).