would you have a problem with an unqualified person teaching music in your school?

[goonIcantakeit]

question to both parents and teachers.

I shall be teaching classroom music next term. I'm very excited, but want to be prepared for any ill-feeling/doubts there may be about having an unqualified person teaching. It's during the teachers' PPA time.

I have a track recorder at the school in that I run an ensemble there, so I am not an unknown quantity and it is on merit.

"I'm tone deaf"

It's more likely that you received a bad music education - even if it was back in those halcyon days of hymns and whole class recorder.....

I can play the fiddle ok and the piano ok and the recorder as well as I did when I was 11 (which was pretty well) and by dint of my job I have been forced to learn four and five note tunes on almost all instruments badly. Except the Oboe and Bassoon because those aren't needed by primary school kids. Oh, and the hurdy gurdy. Those I cannot play. But I have no fear of having to pick up a trombone and play it. If the tromonist needs that, that is what I do. Playing the trombone badly is a lot more likely to make a child persist than working on my own violin diploma.

"if you want your children singing in Latin in parts when they are aged 7 or 8, never mind orchestras, you are more likely to find that in the private schools than state." quoth Jane.

Or in fact in church/cathedral singing- accessible to all regardless of income. Cathedral choristers receive excellent singing tuition free of charge. Churches, it depends on the choirmaster tbh.

My daughter has a brilliant voice. She does not want to sing in latin and has refused to join the very excellent church choir and the halle childrens choir. Both were options for her. She prefers to sing with her (state) school choir and take guitar lessons from an unqualified I checked as a result of this thread teacher, which I pay for through the school music service. They have used Garage Band (she was very impressed I had heard of it) in class and she loves it so we're going to try to get it at home.

I hope I'm developing her natural abilites and encouraging her interest with the resources available to me. She's inspired by lots of things, including her music teachers, qualified or not, and surely that's the point?

"I hope I'm developing her natural abilites and encouraging her interest with the resources available to me."

Not if she's not singing in Latin, you're not. Out you go and get a job/better job so you can pay private school fees. You're letting your child down if you don't.

Farm, yes I was going to suggest that too actually above, the Cathedral and indeed a few parish church choirs which do good singing are worth using too if you don't have religious objections.

I am not saying every state school is bad at music and every private school excellent at it, but I certainly found in order to obtain the music at school I wanted for my children I need to pay school fees (and my children's cousin on the other side of the family by the way has a choral scholarship at present to a Durham college from a comprehensive school I am sure in large part due to the church music in which he has played a large part over his life rather than just both sides of the family having fairly musical genes/home environment).

Jane, I think what you were looking for was specialist training.

You can have excellence irrespective of genre/style/pedagogy.

I appreciate though that, in order to survive, ultra-specialist musical activities such as choristers/national youth orchestras (etc) have to be excellent. So I doubt there are many sub-standard cathedral choirs out there! That doesn't mean that you can't have excellence starting in other ways (ideally, in my view, starting from the music that is engaged with in the child's home). But you've kind of guaranteed excellence and scrutiny by going in for that specialism, IYSWIM.

But I am troubled with the way that ultra-specialist musical activities engaged in almost exclusively by the affluent gobble up the lion's share of resources. I am constantly looking for fundraising for my kids. There are 50 or 60 charitable foundations for future orchestral violinists (an ultra-specialism) than there are for simply supporting a typical child who wants to make music.

So we still haven't overcome the idea that ultra-specialist music is the only proper music and that anyone not doing that must be dumbing down. Which is a pity because in my view these ultra-specialist activities miss out on some pretty basic skills.

What basic skills do you feel are lacking in kids who are members of National Orchestras, then? And how many such kids do you actually know?

Incidentally I do agree with you that singing in Latin (which I did a lot - raised by nuns ;) ) is not intrinsically better, more worthy or even less 'dumb' than e.g. MT (which my kids do a ludicrous amount of). I think that the shows my kids have been in have provided better training and frankly a more enjoyable experience (even taking into account that two of them do quite a lot of 'early music' on their first study instruments) than the many occasions on which they have sung in cathedrals. And I think that anyone who sniffs at Jazz needs to re-educate themselves.

Hakluyt

Though it's interesting to see it from the other side. Jane, I'm interested to know what musical future you see for your children in choosing the path that you have?

Hi,

I haven't read all the thread, but ...

I'm a head of performing arts at a large British international school in Asia.

I do not have a PGCE, but I have a 1st Class BMus and an MA. I have interviewed many music / drama / art teachers.

The challenge in the Arts is that sometimes the most passionate, exciting and inspiring 'teacher' may not have a PGCE. However, those that have a PGCE and prior experience will know classroom management / learner profile expectations, which is of course vital in any age group.

It was a steep learning curve jumping straight into teaching GCSE/A-Level without any prior experience. As a parent at a fee paying school I would have been unhappy 'on paper'. However, all those students in my first year achieved A* and A's, and we were mutually enthusiastic!

When I interview a potential peripatetic music teacher or class music/art/drama teacher my first question is are they going to inspire the children? In my opinion, a child should be coming home to you, itching to tell you all about their lesson that day.

Good luck - it depends what age range you'll be teaching.

Herc, I have no opinion about chidren in the National Youth Orchestra. Why would I?

You said in my view these ultra-specialist activities miss out on some pretty basic skills (having previously referred to national youth orchestras as an example of ultra specialist activities). So I was interested to know what pretty basic skills you feel these kids lack or are not being given?

thanks for that lovely post mumster.

But yes, I have no idea why you wold have any opinion at all about what you describe as 'ultra specialist skills' as you've made it clear that isn't your bag...

I think you might be mistaken about funding too. Essentially - there isn't any. For anyone. Until we get a new government (and probably not even then. I note that Labour has a Plan for Science but I'm not holding my breath for any Plan for Music).

This is what I am saying:

A typical child achieving grade 8 violin does so with zero hours tuition on such basic skills as:

1. pitch-matching
2. knowing what notes/keys are easy on other instruments
3. improvision.

Can we talk about this ~(which is important) and not what I didn't say?

Well, we do have a National Plan for Music .........

We tend to deliver it by whole-class same-instrument tuition.

I suppose that, like everything, that's as good or bad as the teacher+environment thing allows.

You don't tend to get much uptake in the second year though, (when you start having to pay) which suggests it isn't necessarily as successful as it could be. Which is a pity :(

I quoted you DIRECTLY. You have now provided an answer about what you reckon are basic skills and you're right, I doubt anyone who only plays one instrument and has never played in an ensemble knows what keys are easy/difficult for other instruments. Certainly some of the guitarists (far from Grade 8 standard I'd say) who pick the hymns at church some weeks have no idea what is achievable for the younger wind instrument players. :( But most kids who play in a national orchestra will have a second and even a third or fourth instrument, and thus may well have an idea about what keys are better at least for those instruments. They will know about pitch matching. As far as improvisation goes - depends what you mean. Jazz syllabus exams include improvisation right from the start. For classical grade 8 on DD1's second study she has had to compose her own cadenza - it's not jazz improv no (but since she follows the jazz syllabus o another instrument that's ok) but it's not nothing.

I really don't think it's helpful to make sweeping statements about 'ultra specialists' lacking 'basic skills'(particularly as it's not entirely true). In the same way is it's not helpful to be sniffy about jazz or folk or world music or any of the many many other things that are out there for people to enjoy and make their own.

sorry, still wittering...

I don't think most people realise that ABRSM exam-as-syllabus is a route to specialised music-making. Not ultra-specialised, but specialised.
They, of course, must fight their own corner - and good for them. They are very very good at what they do and it's not their fault that their exam material is treated as a syllabus.
But it's wrong if schools accept that ABRSM-recognised music skills = "music skills" and that other music skills either don't count or are the unteachable product of some kind of vague creative ability.

I think electrical guitar teaching is much more balanced.

The current National Plan was drawn up by Gove and his cronies and I expect (though do not know) that they have a science one too. My point was that things might get better on the funding front (given that Gove has told LEAs to spend nothing on the arts) with a different government but that there are no current signs that they will (because they haven't issued any sort of plan, unlike the one that was launched a day or so for science). It's all desperately sad.

The whole-class tuition thing is flawed in that there is no instument choice for either the class teacher or the children.

30 children being forced to learn the clarinet at the same time! The 'concert' at the end is no advertisment for any parent to come up with the money for small group lessons and the kids have all been put off by then anyway.

This is one idea that doesn't work in my experience.

Occasionally it can work - I've known a few people who have come put to me from the primary school to ask about where to find proper 1-1 tuition on one or other of the kids' instruments after their own child has enjoyed some whole class provision (the head seems to think I'm the fount of all knowledge on peris which is obviously untrue). DD2 has got a bee in her bonnet now about folk harp as a result of a folk workshop they had recently. I'm not sure where we're going to go with that...but she's going to another workshop so things aren't looking good.

You're right about there being no choice - but sometimes that can be a Good Thing. One term African drumming, one term something completely different - if it was all own choice it would just be the same old same old.

I'm on the fence. Whole-class recorder with the kids who have lessons on other instruments joining in on those instead. A drumkit and something bassy. A rap option.

That could make an exciting sound, no?

But whole-class bassoon, etc. That's not great.

It depends what are our aims. If you are fundamentalist muslim you don't allow most music, root of all evil and hope to drive it out of every school for example. if you're like me and have had huge pleasure over decades from a range of classical music and want that life long pleasure to go on to my children then you can certainly find it in our best and most academically selective prep schools and senior schools (and of course in some comprehensives too and Cathedrals and the like).

The problem is that most children are as lazy as sin and will also go with the herd. So if no boys their age sing they won't whereas if the school is all boys and singing and that kind of thing is cool then you might do it. Leaving children to choice and most would never leave their bed rooms in the morning as teenagers. You need impose on them to an extent and they get huge exposure to many types of music than classical just through turning on the television so I am not sure they need a lot more of that at school. You also get UCAS points for grade 6 - 8 which does job applications no harm in due course even if you have decent A levels. Also for some social groupings and future careers it can be helpful to have things in common with those with whom you work which might be that you sing in choirs or orchestras (or the brass band at the colliery in those days etc). Music can bind people together.

What worries me is that children who don't go to fee paying schools seem to end up with what I would regard as a lesser quality of music teaching and less chance they can excel at an instrument. I think that's a shame particularly as things like singing cost nothing. I don't think people sing anything like enough, even in the car with their toddler nor sing their children to sleep. We seem to have lost that regular singing that most people used to do.

Exactly the same peris teach at the fee paying and the state schools where I live. My kids certainly don't have any problem excelling at their instruments.

Leaving children to choice and most would never leave their bed rooms in the morning as teenagers.

Your kids maybe. Not mine. :)