would you have a problem with an unqualified person teaching music in your school?

[goonIcantakeit]

question to both parents and teachers.

I shall be teaching classroom music next term. I'm very excited, but want to be prepared for any ill-feeling/doubts there may be about having an unqualified person teaching. It's during the teachers' PPA time.

I have a track recorder at the school in that I run an ensemble there, so I am not an unknown quantity and it is on merit.

Thisbitch - I know everyone uses GarageBand or similar (it's one of the reasons why we have it) and it certainly has its place (a couple of the younger music teachers I know are practically evangelical about it) but it's not the be all and end all, that's my point. Ability to use software doesn't replace all the other qualities and qualifications for teaching primary school music.

One of my music teacher friends is very involved in musical futures and the level of CPD that music teachers do always astounds me. In a good way.

A big challenge in music lessons - especially at primary school - is proper differentiation. The nature of the way music is taught in this country (with so much being done out of school) is such that you can get a much wider range of experience and attainment in a primary school class than in many other subjects. A typical y5 or y6 class might include one or two kids with GCSE equivalent qualifications (grade 5 theory or practical) and a huge amount of performance experience, together with kids who might have huge latent talent which hasn't been released yet. A music teacher needs to include everyone in each lesson - and not leave anyone behind or anyone twiddling their thumbs. Very tricky.

In my last job I often employed unqualified teachers as tutors for the music service I worked for...many of them had similar qualifications to you....a couple of music exams and not a lot else. Generally, I would observe someone and make a decision on whether to employ them. In seven years I only managed to employ two people successfully who did a fab job, and they were the ones that were willing to learn, came regularly to inset and took advice. Both went on to do PGCEs and are now teachers.

Not one teacher I observed in a similar position to you showed good knowledge of all the technicalities of teaching music ....so based on what you've now said...no I wouldn't be happy to see you teaching music, unless you were under the supervision of a good music specialist.

Obviously I can't comment on your classroom management skills...but based on what pervious posters have said....I would be concerned.

Your reluctance to actually say what your quals are to teach music, speaks volumes actually.

My husband and I are musicians (performers). We have three children who all play. I just wanted to say that I have never seen really good classroom music teaching, either as a child myself, or in my children's schools. Some of it has just been incompetent (like the primary teacher who got quavers and crotchets confused). Of the competent teachers, some of them are dreary and dry, and some of them just try to win the kids over by teaching exclusively pop-y type crap.

Gosh, I think someone who took on the job without believing they could do it would be more of a problem.

Anyway This Bitch, sorry, the outing thing is the only reason I'm not saying more. Should perhaps have name-changed.

I do have a lot of experience of differentiation, classroom management, observing others teach, etc. I have enough experience to know exactly how big a challenge this will be. I can Pm you if you are open to talking more.

I think you're being given a bit of a hard time. It depends a little on what the alternatives are, and whether you are displacing a qualified music specialist. I know a lot of primary teachers who hate teaching music, do as little as they can get away with, can't read music at all, play no instruments, can't sing. They play a CD program that does all teaching for them in the weeks that they can't get someone else to cover it, and there seems to be little in the way of overall plan or curriculum that actually gets covered. No peris come into the school, as it's not a priority for the head.

I know parents who say there is almost no music teaching at their schools. One parent goes in to play the piano for assemblies as none of the teachers can; another does a little recorder ensemble as a volunteer, again without qualifications other than her own amateur experience.

Other peris I know have music degrees, but nothing about teaching in those degrees. Some of the better teachers have less in the way of degrees, maybe even only gr8, but are actually better at getting the knowledge across.

So sometimes, watching and evaluating a potential teacher can be an effective way to choose a music teacher who might inspire children more than what they currently have, which might be nothing!

Presumably children who are achieving grades on individual instruments are being taught by specialist teachers in individual lessons. I can't see that grade 5 violin is being gained in a whole class setting? Surely the two issues are separate and require different teaching styles. I was one of those grade-5-at-age-10 children and I certainly didn't get there by learning a class song for 30 mins once a week. It was lessons away from school and lots of practice at home. Class music lessons were learning to play hot cross buns on the recorder (give me strength!), learning a song (singing London's burning in a round), a very simple class 'orchestra' etc,

I imagine strong classroom management skills are a must. A classroom full of small children with percussion could get out of control very quickly

Ps. You can have all the qualifications in the world and still be a shit and uninspiring teacher. Plenty of them still in schools.

Thanks Runaway, I think so too!

No, I'm not displacing anyone.

Beccajoh, thanks, yes, of course the grade-getting string players are taught out of full-class lessons. It's such a different thing. I think that's one of problems in music education: we clamour for more funding and status but are we talking about training to play in an orchestra via one-to-one lessons or are we talking about whole class music?

Personally I feel that whole class music should be at the heart of things. After all, we wouldn't clamour for the wealthier children to have maths tutors come into school to specialise in a subset of mathematical reasoning, and even if we did, we wouldn't put that tutoring at the heart of the school's maths plan. We would focus on all the children.

Perhaps we need to adopt our pedagogies to reflect this, as musical futures has done so well.

I would just be glad there was someone teaching music at all!

I'd love to have qualified PE teachers, music teachers, etc. I can argue passionately for their worth, but our school has a little over £3K/yr?child, and it just isn't possible. In fact, TAs deliver a LOT more lessons than I think is sound. These are often kindly mums, who have no education in education or the subjects whatsoever. They are intelligent but untrained. They are also paid a pittance, and all seem to work a few extra unpaid hours each week. Schools seem to be held together with blue-tac and goodwill!

It seems that a lot of whole class music lessons are essentially singing as a group. I can see why, given the numbers and the complexity. We pay "extra" for "proper" music lessons. I wish every kid could have the same opportunity. I feel that my dds have benefitted enormously from music.

"I wish every kid could have the same opportunity."

Me too. So does Lloyd Webber of course, but his Sistema England model costs millions for just a few schools. There must be a more sustainable way.

Mind you, I think the experts on this thread would say nothing really beats group singing, progressing to harmony in due course.

Which leads me to another thorny question: why does the age at which boys go into "boys don't sing" mode seem to get lower every year and are boys-only groups the answer?

Someone else told me that John Lennon always insisted on his voice being changed during recording, so I'm planning to allow some use of voice-changing technology (garage-band again).

I'd much rather a great musician (and nice person) with some classroom skills than an unmusical but experienced qualified teacher.

there shouldn't be any "allowing.." Kids should be able to create their own music in any way that they choose. I spend my life telling teachers that there is no right or wrong when it comes to composing. xx

I dont think I would care as long as the person was a real musician (my stepfather used to tutor music in schools and I am sure he was not QTS just a busy working musician)

Good, glad you approve Smo.

Even if it's the chipmunk function?

Well....it's about teaching them that 30 minutes of chipmunk music is going to sound bollocks isn't it? So Yeah....I wouldn't say I approve....but it's about engaging kids in what they're interested in....and then discussing and refining their work isn't it?

OP I don't in all honesty know why you've posted this thread. We are all in agreement that QTS and being a good musician help, that being able to sing helps, having an accompanying instrument like piano or guitar helps, music technology for recording, composing and generally interacting with music helps, and that experience and INSET help, and working with and observing experiences colleagues helps, and that funding and well resourced departments time and money wise helps. We are also all in agreement that class music teaching is a different ball game to peri teaching.

What I'm finding massively frustrating is that you are giving the impression of being 'unqualified' whilst refusing to give any information at all on your suitability for the job, and asking for our opinions. How can we know when you don't tell us, then drop in little hints that you are qualified after all? And I don't mean having a degree or whatever - you are either massively arrogant to believe you can teach a job you are literally not qualified to do or you believe you are qualified - just not in the sense of having paper qualifications or anything that posters here would recognise as qualifications to do the job.

You appear to have strong opinions on how music should be taught - good luck to you. Hopefully your instinct and feeling for what will work will stand you in good stead - you have clearly come to this thread believing that qualifications mean nothing and that your innate ability will be fine. Good luck to you and your students.

Thanks have PM'd you.

Hmm, the fact that you know about Sistema (or In Harmony, as the English version is called) makes me think you're perhaps more qualified than you've given the impression of being..!

If only Gove actually took notice of the results of In Harmony he and the other bigwigs might actually start appreciating the value that music can have in schools. Taking time out of the core curriculum to devote to music and embedding it into school life has actually raised results in core subjects in these schools. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that the approach works! Not that politicians and many heads will ever recognise that. bangs head against brick wall

And I agree with you about group singing. There are exceptions but the best musicians I know have generally done singing as well, as it develops the inner ear. Similarly I know plenty of singers who can't count or stay in time with an ensemble because they're only used to singing on their own!

Squidgy - Lots of people know about sistema/In Harmony! My DH does and he has a tin ear. Following the news, or being in a era where they operate, doesn't automatically qualify a person to be a teacher.

But, as a teacher, I've not heard of it.
I'd argue, being a good class teacher doesn't (well, it does legally, but ^shouldn't) qualify you to teach music.

Really?

I agree that being a good class teacher e.g. of maths or science shouldn't qualify you to teach music. You need both teaching qualifications and musical qualifications for that.

Exactly. Most Primary school teachers don't have musical qualifications, hence welcome some support from someone who does.

But the OP doesn't either. That's the point of the thread.