would you have a problem with an unqualified person teaching music in your school?

[goonIcantakeit]

question to both parents and teachers.

I shall be teaching classroom music next term. I'm very excited, but want to be prepared for any ill-feeling/doubts there may be about having an unqualified person teaching. It's during the teachers' PPA time.

I have a track recorder at the school in that I run an ensemble there, so I am not an unknown quantity and it is on merit.

I'm v v old too!

SmoJ you would be very, very hard pressed to find an independent primary without a fully qualified Music Director and a lot of peris too.
Music generally has a much higher profile and importance in the independent sector.

I'm on the fence as far as qualifications go, there are some excellent qualified people and some excellent "non-qualified" and by that I mean non QTS, I assume that anyone trying to teach music should at least have instrumental experience to a good level. However if you have had no training in how to teach singing in primary, please get yourself some. You have to be fairly careful with their voices or and most of the courses are great. Or get some advice from a singing teacher about where to pitch songs, and what to do if a year 6's voice starts to break. Unusual but I have had year 7s whose voices have broken before.

Music has always been very important to me and 3 of the 5 children had./have music scholarships. All went to private schools from age 3 - 5. One reason (not the only one) I am glad I chose a career which enables me to pay school fees is because the music side is important to me. that does not mean you can never get good primary school music in state schools but if you want your children singing in Latin in parts when they are aged 7 or 8, never mind orchestras, you are more likely to find that in the private schools than state.

I don't see why state schools could not do it with singing, though. Singing costs nothing but you have to have that high expectation and be happy to make children put in the lunch time or after school practice. My sons' old school had choir at 7.50am or 8am on a weekday for example. My other son's prep school had a head of music (this is an age 4 - 12 school) who was an organist (FRCO, BMus, PGCE) who had worked in a Cathedral. That is harder to find in state primaries and of course absolutely to be avoided if you're Muslim and aren't allowed to do music at all in school or you only like pop music. I am not saying my own tastes are everyone else's. Many would pay to avoid the music I like.

Music has always been very important to me. All my family are musicians, music teachers and both my children are very musical. I would be deeply sad for them if they were singing Latin at age 7 though.

I don't understand why the kids should study the music you like....what about what they like? I'm in schools engaging really deprived kids singing african, Punjabi....in parts.....whole class Samba bands, every child is included....why is that any less important than the ability to sing in Latin?

I'm very pleased you chose a career where you could pay private school fees.....We don't all have that luxury...my career was as a professional musician...lots of Kudos standing on stage at the Albert Hall next to incredibly famous musicians....terrible pay!

I watch my sister daily in a state secondary with choirs of over 100 singing in many different styles and languages.... please don't ever make the mistake that a private education always offers your child better quality music...that really isn't always the case. I can appreciate that money opens up lots of opportunities, but there are many amazing things happening with incredibly dedicated teachers within music support services and the state sector, and I find this attitude that somehow Private schools offer a better quality of music making quite offensive. Money opens doors, all children should be able to participate in music, whatever their ability and sadly, it's just not always the case.

I'm a prime example of that. I went to a very rough state Comprehensive, did music via all the amazing county ensembles and then I worked as a professional musician in most of the UK orchestras for 15 years....it's a shitty profession once you have kids, as you spend your life on the road for not alot of money, and you don't get to do bedtime. However, I had great parents who didn't have lots of money, but committed their time and efforts for me so that I had these opportunities. It is not all about being in Private schools in order to do "that kind of music", its about parents making those opportunities available.

Some parents can't even do that, and it's very hard, especially when we find incredibly talented children.

Finally, I taught in a very well known public boys school in North London, and also a girls private school. I am very scarred by both experiences, where I agree that the standard of music making was very high, but money was available to buy in professional players for concerts to boost numbers. The attitude of the kids stank. If they passed an exam for which I'd prepared them and got a distinction, they would tell me it was down to them, and not my teaching ability. I would rather spend the day in one of the primaries I teach...where I leave and kids ask me to return, say thank you for having fun, and are inspired.

So a big load of ranty bollocks from me. But it's how I feel.

OP....fact is...if you are enthusiastic, keen, willing to learn, confident and passionate about music. If you can engage 30 kids for 45 minutes, get them to produce worthy compositions, then it matters not if you are qualified or not to me.

I'm just worried as to whether you are that person, and perhaps you don't know if you are either, until you get in there.

there are some good Early Years FB music groups...which are great for sharing ideas and resources. I would recommend joining one. If you would like a link, message me and I will give you further info. x

"However if you have had no training in how to teach singing in primary, please get yourself some. You have to be fairly careful with their voices or and most of the courses are great. Or get some advice from a singing teacher about where to pitch songs, and what to do if a year 6's voice starts to break. Unusual but I have had year 7s whose voices have broken before."

Thank you for that constructive and concrete advice Iona. I am very keen to learn and singng is my weak point, though obviously I have sung in choirs/AmDram, etc. I am aware that making children sing too low is a common error. I have the tremendous good fortune to be working alongside not one but two singing experts, one of whom will be right on my case about this, I know! What are your views on the "boys don't sing" problem? I feel they desire the grown-up snarl sound of rock instruments and then their own voices sound thin and pipey in comparison The critical mass of girls also seems to lead to boys withdrawing.
Do you think a boys only group is the answer? We are considering this at present.

Thanks for that post Smo. You've said what needed to be said about private schools so I don't have to.

I apologise for not answering your earlier questions. Yes, I have four years' experience but I would rather send you a private message.

just trying to think about what I can say here...

Smo - I've been chosen for this job after being observed by practically every teacher and parent in our outstanding school because my composer colleague recommended me. The reason they recommend me is that we make music happen for all the children, and I've been a big part of making that happen. Our music is not just for some. To the extent that our biggest issue now is what will happen to the trusting year 6s we've nurtured when they go to secondary....

I may have a lot to learn, but I share your values and I'm incredibly lucky to be part of a team that also has these values. I come from another profession that pays a lot more. But you don't get to change lives in it.

A boys only group has been hugely successful in my ds school run by a male teacher.

I've had a yr 5 boy voice break. Very unusual & as it was an after school activity he was able to move into an older group. It was a particulary effortless voice change too.

It's important both in young children & older singers to ensure that there is good vocal fold contact when they are singing. Breathiness can indicate problems even though a light breathy voice may be what some perceive as good children's singing.

The boys like to sing songs in speech quality. It's safe & gets them singing.

thanks Pictures. Do you mind explaining what good vocal fold contact means? I can ask my colleague but she'll be impressed if I've genned up beforehand! :)

If there is any youtube video available that would demo it, that would be fantastic.

Duh! moment.

Again - what is speech quality?

I could google it I know but as I have you here....

does it mean speaking the rhythm without producing the pitches?

like a rap?

in which case that's what I was planning. Because when I sat in this term, one of my most enthusiastic ensemble members sat there saying angrily "BOYS DON'T SING" and it didn't end well. So I thought: hmm, drumkit, rap are the way to go here.

But that might not be what you meant.

... tenterhooks.

I'm at work at the moment but its the way the sound is produced & what the larynx is doing.

If you say uh-oh in a nice clear tone your vocal golds are making contact. You can feel this further by going as if to make the sound but stopping (you sort if find you are holding your breath). That's the contact.

Speech quality singing (not to be confused with speech level singing) is the tone you produce with thick vocal folds & the larynx in a neutral position)

Google Gillyanne Kayes (she also writes singing express) & Jo Estill.

Also Jo McNally uses these ideas in her Voiceworks book.

Great, I'll follow up but I'll also book some cafe time with my singer colleague. She not only knows her stuff but will know what I'm doing so will be able to spot dangerpoints.
Appreciated.

It's really encouraging that you have access to singing expertise and are obviously prepared to take advice. An awful lot of people (including some superb instrumentalists) think that anyone can teach singing, but, especially with young voices, there are some really important things to consider (I'm not a singing expert, although I have always sung, but I know several professional singers and singing teachers (some quite high profile) and both my DDs have excellent voice tuition - but not so much at school). I've known really very good singers have their voices damaged (not irreparably, but still) by doing the wrong things under non specialist instruction at schools. The problems I had with your earlier posts were an apparent disinclination to look anywhere for expert advice and an implied attitude of knowing best. Perhaps this was unintended and your posts today certainly seem to indicate otherwise, which is really good. :)

Thank you

It would bother me of you weren't a qualified teacher as such.

But i would expect you to play two, maybe three instruments WELL as a bare minimum. Something like guitar, piano and recorder or trumpet or something. I would also expect you to be able to sing a little.

I'm tone deaf but music is vitally important and some of the responses make me sad :(

I second the voice work books, the blurb in the front is most useful.... I'm not a singer either... But amazed how my voice has developed over the last few years. Junior voice works I use a lot x also if you want to engage kids in singing with stuff they really enjoy singing Sherlock books 1&2 are a fab starting point! Def invest in those. Especially for boys , some of the warm ups are great. Thanks for pm... Will reply when I'm at a computer!!

By the way, it was(according to Dalcroze ) common practice in English music teaching in the 19th Century and early 20th to use symbols instead of numbers as the lower half of the time signature.

so instead of 3/4 it would read 3-over-crotchet-symbol or 3-over-quaver-symbol.

This resonated with me so I checked what an excellent primary teacher mate of mine (who of course teaches music) thinks "3/4" means.

"It means 1-2-3-pause" she said.
Which makes sense!
Especially if some banana has told you that time signatures are "easy if you are good at maths".

Grrrr

I think Dalcroze's idea - or the idea he reports - sounds so much better. What do others think? It's gonna take a lot of tippex, but musescore can create the feature for me (see what I mean abut musescore?)

They are interesting issues. I suppose I pay fees in part to ensure that there will be good singing aged 7 - 10 in the sort of music I love and we all know boys' voices to age 10/11 singing complex church music are a very special thing.

We had a local Christmas in the street lights opening thing 2 years ago. I went there hoping my prejudices about dumbed down music in the state sector would be spoiled - that the prep school would be doing worse than the state about I was utterly confirmed in my views sadly. The state school singers even from the local senior school were utterly useless, did not even sing in parts. It was not just different but bad.

I think it is partly about who teaches in the various schools. If you recruit teachers who perhaps were ni the school choir, were in the Oxford college choir etc they are going to pass all that complex wonderful stuff on to the children. Other sources of teachers might end up with happy clappy down market stuff which cannot touch the soul.

I was privileged to have a Dalcroze teacher work at ds's afte school activity. It's huge in Australia. I was very impressed at how it helped to develop musicality, aural skills etc.

You sound much nicer in that last post Jane!

I think we have changed as a society, and the things we celebrate have changed.

At our school, we work very hard on Christmas and keep it very traditional. For me, it's the only time I get to do the combination of four part harmony music with resonant lyrics. And it's great: all the kids are up for it. It works because it is authentic: Christmas is special. The other things that used to be central too: celebrating the victories of the armed forces and the sending off of boys to war; celebrating marriages in church; celebrating other church festivals; celebrating local harvests - it's harder to do the songs that "belong" to those festivals now.

Singup has great songs but the problem with commissioned songs is their equally-commissioned "uplifting" lyrics. My personal bugbear is the word "Community". It pleases me that Alan Bennett also dislikes this much-abused word as used in educational parlance.

My sons go to a boys only prep up to 13 and the choir is very popular. Choir practice is 30 mins before school twice a week and its taken very seriously. So boys can and do like singing. They sing a variety of music from traditional carols at Christmas to Lennon & McCartney. So boys do sing but perhaps they are more enthusiastic because its not seen as a girls' thing to do.

The school has two full time music teachers each with masters degrees and QTS.

One music event we went to organised by another school they had got everyone to learn to play the Match of the Day theme tune and then put together an ad hoc orchestra to play it. That went down well with the boys as well as the girls.