Free tutoring for the 11+ - or how to make the 11+ more meritocratic

[tryingreallytrying]

Thinking aloud...

I successfully tutored my own dc for the 11+ and have been approached many times to tutor other people's children (I'm a teacher, but not at this level, but frankly didn't find it difficult to get on top of requirements for the 11+).

I've always said no to doing any paid tutoring (though I've tutored a friend's child for free) - I know I could make lots of money doing this but strongly believe that grammar schools should not only be open to the children of those who can pay - much like it used to be when I went to grammar school myself.

I'd like to return to that situation - where 11+ exams are NOT tutored for. But in the absence of that, I'd like to ensure that 11+ exams are open to everyone, rich or poor, and that the poor are as well prepared for the exams as the rich.

I'm happy to offer my expertise - but can't afford to spend my time tutoring everyone who might want it for free, personally.

So how to achieve that goal? I've thought of creating materials, websites... Anyone else like to join with me in this? Got any other ideas?

Except saintly that a child can attend another audition and another and another if they fail the first, second, third.

A child who fails the 11+ has no chance to sit it again: that's it.

It IS a big deal, it really is.

I

Well only if you make it one.

You can make anything a big deal or you can make it about having a go. We live in a super selective area - not that many people even take the eleven plus & it's easy to present it as having a go alongside considering other schools. We didn't even choose ds2's first choice school until after he had the 11 plus results. Then he said he'd like to put the grammar first. But even after results we had a 'which school' discussion. Most parents around here are capable of being sensible & realistic about it.

I'm not sure I'd allow any of my kids to do repeated auditions without succeeding in any tbh - it's like the eleven plus - happy to have a go, even if hugely competitive, but only if it's at least a little realistic. Not much point putting someone in for something if they have zero chance.

The first thing I've done with both ds2 & ds3 is ask their teacher in year 4 whether 11 plus is realistic for them. Having been told in both cases that yes the school think they are likely to get a place then I have no worries about starting some extra work in year 5. If the school said they were very borderline or it was unrealistic then they wouldn't be doing it.

TBH it's about knowing your child. If I had a child I felt absolutely couldn't cope with the possibility of not getting a place at grammar school then I wouldn't put them in for the 11 plus (but I'd also be looking for ways to increase their resilience tbh). If I put a child in for the 11 plus I work very hard to ensure that they know I will NOT be disappointed if they don't get in. If they absolutely did not want to sit the exam or go to the school I would not force them to. If they had only a very small chance of passing then they wouldn't be sitting the exam.

It is possible for a child to sit - and even 'fail' (many failures being nothing of the sort of course as it's perfectly possible to get in with one school in one year, and not in with the same score in a different year) - the 11 plus without it being a life damaging event. It's up to parents to ensure there's a balanced view and a child's entire self esteem and value isn't based on the results of one exam. If it is I would say something has gone wrong somewhere.

"Well only if you make it one."

Your secondary education IS a big deal. It usually decides the course of the rest of your life.

"You can make anything a big deal or you can make it about having a go."

'Having a go' eh?

72% of successful candidates for 11+ have had tutoring. (actually I think this is an underestimate). Around my way (where the 2 grammars are super selective) it's common for people to take children out of the local primary in year 4 and send them private in order to improve their chance at the 11+. Many of those who don't have the money for full private school fees, tutor every week from year 4 onwards. There are many parents putting in 1 to 1.5 hours DAILY on the skills needed for the 11+. In other words, most children are not casually trying out for a place (which is what the phrase 'give it a go' implies). When they sit the test it'll be a very, very big deal indeed because (sometimes) hundreds of hours of preparation, not to mention thousands of £££'s have been targeted on their success on that one particular day.

"Most parents around here are capable of being sensible & realistic about it."

Well clearly parents around my way are not, hence the massive explosion in tutoring and parents remortaging their homes to send their children to private schools. Or maybe it's because I live in an inner city area where the comprehensives aren't heaving with middle-class kids. The opposite in fact - in my area gang culture is a HUGE problem. The comprehensive I took my dd out of (to send her to another comprehensive) employs bouncers with walkie talkies to get the children out of the chicken shops on the high street and into school in the morning. The thought of a parent having a sensible and balanced discussion about whether their very high achieving and intelligent child should accept a place at this type of school in preference to a place at the local super selective grammar makes me cry with laughter. Or just cry, because it's all so bloody mad.

I think many parents put their kids under more pressure with Sats(going by MN) whether it be a level 4,5 or 6 than many do with the 11+.

"If I put a child in for the 11 plus I work very hard to ensure that they know I will NOT be disappointed if they don't get in."

What, your own child?

So if I put my child in for the 11+, after spending 100's of hours preparing for the test, and perhaps ££££ of pounds on tutoring, and the alternative to the grammar is a very rough comprehensive which has a reputation for gang culture and only a tiny percentage of high performing children, I should ensure they don't see that I'm gutted if they don't get in?

With respect - I'm a human being not used to telling wopping lies to me children. And I'm also not a great actress. How would you suggest I would practice not looking disappointed? Stand in front of the mirror saying 'No, I'm absolutely delighted that my very high achieving, sensitive and academic child is going to be attending a rough local comprehensive with a gang-violence problem, instead of the amazingly well-equipped grammar seething with musical and academically brilliant children. Delighted.

And you think my child is thick and insensitive enough not to realise that all the adults around him are disappointed for him?

Ventura you don't answer repeated questions and seem to not read half of many posts whilst completely misunderstanding many(intentionally or otherwise). I personally don't think that has a place,on here so there you go.

Not all grammar situations are like that,not by a long shot.

I have read all of your posts Retropear, every one. If you'd like to repeat any question you believe I've failed to answer, then I'll happily attempt to answer.

Mini, did Retropear say your DS was predicted L6/ L6s? Then he's in with a shout. It sounds to me as though you have a bad case of being ground down by hype. I do realise that the hype is particularly acute where you live since, as you say, the stakes are quite high. Moreover, there's no way that you need to do the amount of work you suggest -nothing like- and it's certainly not too late. I can see that the cousin thing doesn't help, but hold a steady course, take a large dollop of saintlyjimjams very sound advice and don't worry too much if your DS sees you're disappointed for him, provided he knows you're not disappointed in him: have faith. He sounds very bright

Minifingers - you paint a picture I do not recognise. It's not remotely related to our experiences with the 11 plus. Here the vast majority come from state schools (there's only about 2 private schools in the city) - I think there are about 2 privately educated kids in ds2's year.

And no I don't think that ds2's future would be different if he went to the local comp rather than the grammar. He wants to go to drama school. Ds3 wants to do history at university - I see no reason why he shouldn't get into a decent university from a comprehensive or a grammar. If he wants to do classics granted he will find it easier from the grammar as most comprehensives here don't offer Latin - and we're not in catchment for the ones that do.

I wouldn't send my children to a school so bad it destroyed their chance of a future. They'd be Internet schooled over that, but I don't think there are any that bad in the city tbh. Maybe that's why we're not completely neurotic about it and find it easy enough not to be despairing if they don't get in.

And to be frank if my children needed 'hundreds of hours' of preparation for the eleven plus they wouldn't be sitting the bloody thing! A) can't fit in 100's of hours and B) it wouldn't be the right school for them.

We spend nothing on eleven plus preparation except using some bond books & past papers

I'm actually not even sure what you're saying minifingers.

It is completely possible to do the eleven plus without making it the most important thing in the world.

Ds2 has an audition this weekend - it actually would be a huge boost for his future career choice. However it is hugely competitive & I'm not sure he fits particularly well with what they want this year.

So he is going for it with me telling him to treat it as a workshop to learn from, as audition practice & that his chances are low just due to numbers, especially given his age (young). He knows his chances are low - he'll give it his best shot & if he gets it I'll have a panic attack about the cost while being surprised & delighted for him.

You can treat the 11 plus as having a go & you can also ready your child to be delighted if they get in rather than destroyed if they don't.

Ventura I think you're muddling me up with another poster.

I'm doing not a lot and doubt my school are predicting 6s.They don't aim high as a rule and certainly don't inform parents if they can help it.

From what I can see in my professional opinion he'll be fine and if he isn't he shouldn't be at the grammar and will be happier at the comp alternative although rather disadvantaged to the kids coming from Outstanding schools.

I think Ventura was talking to minifingers retro re the level 6's etc Your approach is the same as mine.

Yes, I was talking to Mini.

Mini, my own experience of the 11+ also bears no similarity to what you describe, none whatsoever. My DC did nothing like the amount of prep you suggest - a maximum of 45 mins a week for each of maths and English and their schools gave no homework, or next to no homework, so there was plenty of time and no feeling of pressure. None of them failed the 11+ and this has been for a superselective over the past few years, so it's all very current.

What I do recognise though is the completely over the top talk by far too many parents of how incredibly hard it is to get in and how no-one stands a chance if they don't tutor. Those whose children don't get a place are often the worst at this, and I'm not sure how those whose children haven't yet taken the test can be of very much help. Those whose children have passed but been tutored don't actually know what difference the tutoring made. Which leaves the parents whose children have got in with no tutoring or a minimal amount - and one might be forgiven for wondering how! My DC are all at or went to a top superselective but they aren't all off the scale bright.

Incidentally, I didn't make a particular secret of the fact I thought it would be the best school for my DC if they got in, but it was all superficially cool. Just try and be cool even if you feel anything but cool - it's doable, honestly.

"And to be frank if my children needed 'hundreds of hours' of preparation for the eleven plus they wouldn't be sitting the bloody thing"

It is normal round my way for people who want their children to sit the 11+ at the local super selective to start tutoring weekly in year 4. The tutoring sessions are in small groups and are 1.5 hours (usually). In addition to this children are expected to do about one to one and half hours work a day after school. This is not outrageous. Children in private schools get set about an hour's homework a night minimum in year 5 and 6.

My son is at a school where only one hour's homework is set a week. It is not always maths or literacy. In addition he has had very much less one to one attention from his teacher than his private educated cousin (who has just got into a super selective) has had as he is in a class of 30, including 2 unstatemented children with significant EBD. I know for a fact that my son's teacher is losing hours of teaching time on managing behaviour, even though she is in excellent practitioner. It is just a very, very difficult class.

It is unfair to say that children like my son - who will need A LOT of work to get his literacy up to a level 6 by September - are not suited to a grammar environment. Had he been at the same school as his cousin he would no doubt be well ahead of where he is now. But he is where he is, and if he wants to catch up by Autumn, he will need many hours of my time, and some tutoring, to stand a chance at 11+.

My son didn't even sit level 6's - his school wasn't into level 6's & I wasn't fussed as he was performing in a west end tour the week before SATS which I thought was more important & a lot more interesting. He scored a solid pass in the mock 11 plus & I assume did similarly in the actual exam. A term & a half in he's not having any problem academically - is doing very well in fact & holding his own.

Yes some parents go completely over the top with the horror stories & discussion of levels & put their children under ridiculous pressure while tutoring an insane amount. You don't have to join in with the crazies. If the alternative is a completely crap school I can't see the issue with giving it a go tbh.

The advantage of a school not setting much homework is it leaves you free to do plenty of 11 plus specific time if you want. I don't think primary school kids need more than an hour's homework a week do they? it would seem excessive to me tbh. My son lives with a brother with severe challenging behaviour & a habit of interrupting homework time - none of it needs to be an issue. Just keep calm & do what you can. It isn't rocket science - that's the point of this thread - do some past papers & go over weak areas & they have as much chance as anyone else.

And actually I would say it is outrageous to do an hour and a half homework every night in primary school - no-one I know - state or private - does anywhere near that.

Mine weren't put in for L6s either because like saintly's school, ours didn't enter them and I was also completely unfussed. The youngest was taught in a state school with one teacher teaching four year groups simultaneously and some very, very, very disruptive kids. DD had no homework ever - even in Y6. Not only did she sail through the 11+ with an hour and a half extra each week (I'm not sure it was actually 'extra' since her school was so bad) but, judging from her full year report issued last week, she must be at or very near the top of her year at the superselective. This is said purely to reassure you Mini: you're completely misunderstanding the reality so please don't let your DS miss a chance if it could profoundly affect his future in a positive way.

I've been reading this thread with great interest, and have returned after a break, to find lots of talk about Level 6 SATs in connection with the 11+.

The suggestion that in order to hold their own at a grammar school, even if they pass the 11+, children should be achieving Level 6 SATs when they leave, is a new one on me. The bar just keeps on being raised.

How common is it for state primaries to be entering their able children for Level 6? Unheard of in ds3's school. He's on the load of b*ocks G&T list in yr5, and still hasn't done e.g. adding mixed fractions. (At school, that is).

MrsRuff high L5s is fine. It's just more mythology that you need L6s. So many state primaries predict L6s without putting the kids in because they know they'll fail so they do the cop out 'teacher prediction' thing. It's just more bollocks, really it is.

Agree with Ventura. Ds2 didn't do level 6's - half a year in he's having no problems at all at grammar - seems to be the top 1/4 of his class for most subjects. The only subject where there are some children who appear to fall into genius category is in maths - I think that's partly a reflection of the 11 plus at his school where being good at maths helps you get in - he sits next to someone with level 8 in maths for example. But even in maths he is around the middle of the class & getting pretty much identical test scores as a friend who did do level 6 at primary. He's rubbish at art & DT, but otherwise doing very well.

There's a lot of nonsense spouted about grammar schools in terms of what's needed to get in and what's needed to keep up.

Level 6s aren't needed for grammar,they do however give you an advantage in many comps,certainly ours which is one of the reasons why we're considering the grammar.Most of the feeder schools to our comp are far better than ours and they do use the Sats to set in year 7(I'm aware schools differ).

You do however need to have covered the year 6 syllabus by the beginning of year 6 to do the 11+ which obviously gives the kids from private and Outstanding primaries(who will push bright kids instead of doing the absolute minimum) an unfair advantage.