stopped believing in decent state schools

[innercity]

I guess I need reassurance that in some parts of the country, in some areas, there are good state schools? That actually teach numeracy and literacy?! I don't believe this anymore...

DS is in Y4 in primary, which is a very desirable local south London comprehensive. Their class was consistently failed by a succession of NQT (3 in a row) and supply in between. This year they finally got the most experienced teacher in school.

But what do I see? They have not been taught formal division or multiplication (this is top table, supposedly working at 4c/4b); they do not do basic maths practice almost at all (15*3 or 128-45); maths provision is so scarce, it is safer to assume they are not taught anything.
How can differentiation work if the class hasn't been introduced to decimals, but you (individual pupil) can take decimal addition (choose that sheet) if everyone's doing addition?
OK, I explained to my son about decimals, but what kind of differentiation is that, this is just jumping without any plan?

They write 1 story in two weeks. I have taught DS spelling and he is now the best speller in class (english is his second language) - way ahead of others. How ridiculous is that?

I've checked maths and english papers for 10+ fro some independent schools and unless I work with him really seriously there is no way on Earth he can pass this in a year, not only because the topics asked there are not taught but also topics leading to topics there had not been taught or practised enough.

I am really wondering whether there is a huge cover up and dishonesty and English understatement and double-layered meaning when ppl (here on mumsnet) talk about "not tutoring," and how wonderful their child's school is??
DS school appears so creative, with workshops and art, bla bla, it's just that it doesn't do what the schools are for...

Bonsoir thanks for clarifying :) All these generalisations (based on personal experiences of course!) are really interesting - I guess it's an opportunity for us to learn the best approaches from each other to support our kids.

I think from my personal experience, it was a shock when primary school didn't live up to my expectations, hence we stepped it up with our kids and I think Bonsoir's "The expectation of parental topping up is a sort of implicit home-school contract" is very true. In many ways I wish this isn't the case, but I think with the constraints and demands that are placed on teachers, parental support is undeniably needed for many kids.

Gosh, I really don't like the teach a lot of things these days. Like 'chunking' (division), for example. I really hate it. What was wrong with long division???

Certainly in the French system the need for "home tutoring" is built into the system as I have never known a child who doesn't miss something somewhere and it is not the teacher's job to plug individual gaps. Indeed, better teachers provide detailed end-of-term reports that highlight what needs to be revised and rehearsed during the holidays, or even the next few months, but it is up to the parents to find the materials and do the work.

I think all parents have a responsibility to their children to help them at home. In HK the average child is subjected to a high pressure cooker environment. It is a non ending roundabout of tutoring and homework.
The child no doubt will usually gain grade 5 music..but can they play with their heart and not rote? The child will have one sport in which they will out perform your average 11 year old...but will they enjoy it?. Then youur child will most likely be more advanced in all academic subjects.. but will they understand it?

The point being the English system is less pressured but is more focus on enjoyment and understanding...

Yes I agree core subject like timetables and the like should still be rote as a matter of course. .

My DSS1 has spent a term now at university in England, having been educated in the French system. He is reading Economics at Bristol and there are plenty of students from continental Europe and the Far East as well as home grown students, of whom a significant number are from Asian backgrounds.

DSS1 much enjoys trying to work out who has been best educated based on both their cultural and school background! He hadn't reached any conclusions yet though he has already understood that all the Chinese girls sit in the front row at lectures and spend inordinate amounts of time in the library but are less well-prepared for tutorials than the English boys who seemingly doze unshaven in their pyjamas in the back row at lectures.

I find the casual dismissal of education outside the UK so parochial, so unimaginative and just so damn British .

No education system is perfect. Surely. But that doesn't mean we can't nick the best bits and learn from them.

I mean, yes the education system in France is a bit grey and top-down, but by God they know what they're doing in maths!

I'd love the British state system to take maths so seriously and teach it as well as the French. That doesn't mean we have to co opt the French system in toto.

Now that Gove is in charge things are changing somewhat in English schools. I've noticed that my younger child is spending loads of time on learning times tables, whereas with the older one it was much less of a big deal. I do agree with times tables learning, but I don't agree with the increased focus on grammar (or spelling), as I think that that is best learned through reading and creative writing.

Well, I read law at university and had a term doing tutorials with a HK Chinese student who, I have to say, wrote long, boring essays which largely regurgitated the text books. I'm not sure I ever heard him express a personal opinion. Seemed a bit of a waste of the tutorial system to take this exceptionally dull approach to essay writing... It was as though, once he had gained the knowledge, he didn't actually want to do anything interesting with it.

Or maybe he didn't even understand it? It was hard to tell.

"I am an academic and I work in a top 8 uni; most students are either foreign or come from private schools."

"The proportion of students from state schools at Russell Group universities has increased from 68.3 per cent in 1997, to 74.5 per cent in the most recent year. This growth in state school pupils is faster than for UK universities as a whole, where the proportion grew from 81.8 per cent to 88.5 per cent." here

OP - if your dc was in a school with class sizes half the size of the one he is currently in, a class where pretty much all the children with special needs, the academic strugglers, those with behavioural problems, and those children struggling to learn English, were removed, you'd probably find your son would make faster progress. Not because the teaching was different, but because the learning environment would be radically changed and the pace of learning would improve.

It's all about social engineering, and most well off people in the UK sign up enthusiastically for it, rather than keep their children in the state sector and try to make up for the education they might be missing by giving more support at home.

It's a tragedy for the rest of us who can't afford private - that so many clever and motivated children (and parents) are lost to the state sector (because you know, schools are communities, and all communities are improved by having talented and energetic individuals in them).

Whilst I do think the over representation of private school students in university is being addressed to some extent, I'm not sure those Russell Group figures tell us much.

Some of the courses at some of the universities within that group are neither hard to get on nor well thought of.

If we look at the figures at the most selective universities, we don't see such a rosy picture. In certain disciplines the lack of UK state schooled pupils is noticible. And if we remove from that cohort the students who attended selective state schools, the numbers can look poor.

And let's not even get started on MAs...

I don't think that there's too much of a problem at primary school level, which I have been quite impressed by. Some parents will go for private from age 4 because they want "the best", but plenty of children go private from age 11 and catch up quickly enough. I know a good few bright and well-off parents who choose to send their children to state primary - eg one of my child's friends is the daughter of 2 wealthy university professors, who could very easily have sent her to private if they'd wanted to. Secondary schools I think are more of an issue, with sometimes low expectations and children being pushed towards easy exams to push their schools up the tables.

wordfactory - I agree that it is crucial to dig down to course level in order to paint a true picture of the relative representation of different socio-cultural groups at universities.

Ex-public school school pupils are also over-represented on some courses at RG universities of dubious value on the labour market (MFL, theology, classics). They undoubtedly boost schools' frontline statistics but perhaps to the detriment of their former pupils' future careers and ability to maintain their standard of living...

That's true Bonsoir.

I think in some public schools it's a case of Oxbridge by whatever means necessary...

That said, I think studying an MFL at Oxbridge will still stand you in good stead .

BTW we receive a leavers print out from both DC's schools, telling us where everyone went and what they're studying.

Interesting stuff.

My sister studied MFL at Oxbridge (before doing an MA and PhD in another discipline) so knows a lot of Oxbridge linguists. My paternal grandmother was an Oxbridge linguist. My sister's ex BF from university is an Oxbridge linguist academic. We know several current and graduating Oxbridge linguists.

The ones that "make it" will have learned their languages outside the English public school system. This is not a secret.

A lot of them seem to go to the City (natch) and the foreign office .

Yes, I agree quite a few wind up in the Foreign Office (where you don't actually have to be frightfully good at MFL but you do need the quick analytical skills that studying MFL at Oxbridge will hone).

Innercity, how do you know exactly what happens in lessons every day? Are you a parent helper? Could you volunteer to be one for a short time, work permitting? Parents are often amazed at what goes on "behind the scenes" and say they had no idea their child was doing this that etc.
By the way, private schools do no have to employ qualified teachers. Hopefully they do though.

Do not have to , that should read.

Snowbells there's nothing wrong with long division other than the fact that lots of kids just don't get it and it's not the only method.

Schools teach a variety of methods. This is a good thing (said as someone with maths A level, a degree and post-grad qualification that both required maths but who never bothered with long division because I found my own method quicker and easier for me - it turns out what I did was chunking of sorts).

We always thought our primary was middle of the road... okish... needed a bit of parental input to teach the kids the key maths, grammar stuff..... full of airy fairy new teach-through-play stuff (i.e. not how WE were taught) ..... it seemed to be the most "progressive" of the local schools, but the only one local enough for our kids to walk to and feel part of the community...

our kids are "bright" - not top of the class/grammar school "bright" but able to keep up, put the effort in and able to think for themselves

then the kids went to secondary - both are top groups of everything - as are the others from their primary who went there, of the 20 kids in the "particularly able" (hate the terminology!) group, the 12 who went from their primary are all in there.. in an intake of 240....

all that airy-fairy new-fangled stuff - as my dad called it - seems to work... or the other local schools were particularly crap... which I do not believe...

Looking at leavers' courses and destinations in even the most highly regarded private schools will give pause for thought in that regard.

Out of interest, assuming a student has all round talents, which subjects would you suggest for future career success?

Maybe the clue is the parental input ShadowoftheDay.

Looking at leavers' courses and destinations in even the most highly regarded private schools will give pause for thought in that regard.

I agree. I have met recent graduates with shockingly low employment prospects in fields where they would be able to attempt to maintain their childhood standard of living who have been to Eton + Oxbridge, Westminster + Oxbridge, St Paul's + Oxbridge... It's really depressing for them, the truth takes a while to sink in (they have lived their lives in bubbles of success, wealth and relatively easy paths to achievement) and then they realise they have to take out a bloody great socking loan to do an M-something in a work-related field...