stopped believing in decent state schools

[innercity]

I guess I need reassurance that in some parts of the country, in some areas, there are good state schools? That actually teach numeracy and literacy?! I don't believe this anymore...

DS is in Y4 in primary, which is a very desirable local south London comprehensive. Their class was consistently failed by a succession of NQT (3 in a row) and supply in between. This year they finally got the most experienced teacher in school.

But what do I see? They have not been taught formal division or multiplication (this is top table, supposedly working at 4c/4b); they do not do basic maths practice almost at all (15*3 or 128-45); maths provision is so scarce, it is safer to assume they are not taught anything.
How can differentiation work if the class hasn't been introduced to decimals, but you (individual pupil) can take decimal addition (choose that sheet) if everyone's doing addition?
OK, I explained to my son about decimals, but what kind of differentiation is that, this is just jumping without any plan?

They write 1 story in two weeks. I have taught DS spelling and he is now the best speller in class (english is his second language) - way ahead of others. How ridiculous is that?

I've checked maths and english papers for 10+ fro some independent schools and unless I work with him really seriously there is no way on Earth he can pass this in a year, not only because the topics asked there are not taught but also topics leading to topics there had not been taught or practised enough.

I am really wondering whether there is a huge cover up and dishonesty and English understatement and double-layered meaning when ppl (here on mumsnet) talk about "not tutoring," and how wonderful their child's school is??
DS school appears so creative, with workshops and art, bla bla, it's just that it doesn't do what the schools are for...

I suspect Nigella assumes I am South Eastern Asian - I am not. And I also do not think DS has to be the smartest or indeed that he is the smartest - I know that he has a lot of problematic areas. It is just by the makeup of his class, that he happens to be in the top set, but he can very well be the middle elsewhere.

And I have to dispell this myth about an amazing UK creativity achieved by
the removal of dictation exercises (presumably) and introduction of projects - by saying that in the academy, the UK recruits a lot of people from abroad, and the UK candidates are often not the best - creatively too.
High standard education doesn't exclude creativity, you have to be creative and excited if you find ideas and images, and concepts breathtaking, but you can think you're creative when you're just crap, this is very possible.

nigellasdealer I'm sure innercity doesn't need me to defend them, but our teachers have also told us in the past that our kids were "way ahead"... can't be such an unique phenonmenon...

no i assume you are Polish to be honest ...

Hello OP.

I don't think good schools exist anymore personally. I know that Ofsted class outstanding and good but I don't class school education as good.
So many changes in policies and procedures, the NC changing and levels being scrapped, it really must be a nightmare to send your children to school these days.
I believe that schools do far more damage to learning than an education received out of the classroom, but that's just my opinion.
Some people like schools and find them somehow beneficial.

There is an amazing school near me if you baptise your children and go to church, the one they offered us is a feeder school for the Jeremy Kyle show.

Ds1 is in a private prep and if we couldn't afford it we would do home ed. Many local families have had to go down the HE rout.

well, I am sometimes amazed by the things which are said about state schools, as my experience has been good.

I think the simple answer is that schools do vary, and even more, that teachers vary in their approach.

From that perspective you may have a point in terms of lack of consistency.

My children's school teaches long division, long multiplication, times tables grammar, spelling, story writing etc. But they don't always teach the same method that I learnt.
They also do good music, yes they are whole class music lessons, but still every child from every background gets a chance to learn to play a proper instrument, well enough to give a concert at the end of the year.

At the same time they learn critical thinking, creativity, working together and all the hidden curriculum things which are important.

ds is year 6 and receiving extra lessons to try for level 6 sats. Dd is year 4 and working at level 4c, dd2 is year 1 and reads and writes well.

ds passed his 11+ for a super selective, he did not have tutoring, but did have preparation (familiarisation with the tests)

So I'm afraid you may have had a bad experience, but that does not mean you can write off a whole country or a whole education system.

NigellasDealer overseas students do pay top dollar, but they won't be admitted if they didn't have high class education and results, otherwise it would be damaging to the University's reputation in the region long term.

Thanks for everyone responding. Just a disclaimer: I am not trying to bash state school (and I know nothing about private). I've been educated in three different countries and I never paid for any of it. Therefore I don't think money equates good education and I find this connection bizarre.
I guess what i am trying to do here in such a weird manner is to (again) try to understand what school education is like in the UK; believe it or not it is very very very difficult to make sense of it.

Primary great (where my ds is) the secondary my dd goes to is amazing. Semi selective state - about 12% selected. Dd got in with no tutoring for one of those places.

How big is the school?

You mention your ds is in the top set. Do they do setting for every literacy and numeracy lesson? How many sets are there?

I would aim for a 3-4 (minimum) form entry state school so there will be 3-4 sets for both literacy and numeracy.

That is my opinion for primary. Setting is essential and bigger schools are actually better for this. Makes the teaching more specific and targeted for each set.

sorry I listed my kids achievements because you may be bright, but you can't achieve a high level unless someone has taught you the things necessary to get it. That someone was not me. It was the school, so the school has maximized my kids potential.

I do think though, that supportive parents are key in any education system.

sorry innercity, but I have read countless masters theses, it is what I do for a living, and judging by those standards, pretty much anyone who is paying full fee is admitted. i have had work that I have struggled to convert into something readable.
Although to be honest with you I have not been impressed by the education offered my children either. It makes me so

Sharaluck - I don't know how many sets there are and this is a great secret. You can't ask that because you become that parent obsessed with results that supposedly thinks her child should be propelled ahead no matter what. Levels are only shared in Y2 and Y6 or if you threaten with applying the Freedom of Information Act (joking).

Also, the problem is DS finds school incredibly boring. He is also often paired (for projects, etc) with one boy in class who has learning difficulties, keep throwing things around and shouting, and refusing to work. DS comes home extremely tired and frustrated because he has to always be very nice, polite and affirmative - whereas the abovementioned child, for whom I have great sympathy, is allowed much higher level of misbehaviour apparently because he finds the school very difficult. I have hard times explaining to DS why that is so and the rules are so different.

NigellasDealer - yes, writing can be bad because they write in a foreign language - but their home degree, depending on the University that takes them, of course, has to be stellar. I am an admissions tutor for my MA and I can't admit students from a range of institutions in some parts of the world even if the have a 1st, - I need to make a special case to the Pro Vice Chancellor.

I grew up abroad. When I started learning French as a kid, we were reading French books after 2 years. My English A-level curriculum was of a higher standard than the one here in Britain. DH found that very surprising - because at his school all you did in modern languages was memorizing phrases or something like that to get the coveted A.

well school is about learning to work with others as well as rote learning.....at least my children have learnt that I suppose.

if I were you innercity, you have a good job and only one child by the sounds of it, start looking around now for a private school for him, you will never think normal school is good enough. or find a nice Catholic school.

steppemum
It is fantastic that your kids achieved all that through/in school. It's good to hear this is possible. Of course, parents are key, but basic literacy and numeracy just needs a little bit of practice every day and this is just not easy if you work full time and - also - your child comes home exhausted and frustrated and is just not ready to start doing maths and English. They're in school for so long!

I'd much prefer to discuss books, and go to museums, and do an odd exercise here and there as a parent; I don't mind explaining difficult topics. But I do believe that basic things should be taught at school, - as he progresses through school, it also becomes increasingly more difficult to teach him everything in spare time at home. He wants free time, and I have to explain why he needs to work at home after he was at school for the entire day?! I have to say: "your school doesn't teach you this and that"?

Can you not find out the school size and then work it out from there? I would guess it is fairly full if it is a good South London school so would guess maybe 30 students per class?

I honestly don't think a parent politely questioning a teacher about class/teaching arrangements for literary and numeracy would be perceived negatively. So just ask about it. I would like to know if they set for every lit/num. Also maybe ask for a copy of the class schedule/timetable so you can see what they do each day. I don't think asking these are unreasonable, some schools do actually sent this information home.

NigellasDealer
I posted on mumsnet before and that was what people said (that's when I first started thinking about private); I guess I find it hard to accept that what is normal in a supposedly developed country is somehow below par if compared to some other parts of the world. Why is it so? Why does it have to be so?

I do have a good job, and one child, but am a single mother and funding a private school would mean almost starving. You can't send your kids to the private school if you're professor at this point in time in the UK. So I guess this is all just about a huge anxiety. And I just don't know what to do, really. Do I keep believing things can change on a secondary level compared to what I see at the primary level. Do I believe grammar schools will save me and move to a grammar school area? Do I move to where private schools are cheap?

DS is in year three. He seems able to multiply and divide fairly easily knows some of his times tables (though to be fair not all) and his multiplication and division uses a system which is a bit of a mystery to me but it seems to work well enough.

He writes stories, learns about history and geography and communications, goes swimming once a week and does an hour of PE on top, has music lessons taught by a qualified music teacher. Language teaching is very weak - as it ever was!

I get his level compared to the national average at every parent-teacher consultation - I'm not sure why you wouldn;t I thought this was standard practice?

I'm an accountant with a degree and a variety of post university qualifications so I don't think my standards are particularly low. And I don;t believe his school is exceptional in this area.

Maybe we are just astoundingly lucky.

I went to a convent school overseas which was much more old fashioned structured in ts approach. I don't think I learnt any more there than DS is at his school and his curriculum looks a lot ore fun than mine ever was - DS loves school. Which I think is hugely important when you're 8.

i really do not know innercity, it is v difficult esp. as a single mother, I know. I must admit to being disappointed too.

We have a curriculum meeting at the begining of the year - we get a copy of the daily time table, topics covered, we get a home learning agreement we have to sign, told what level th echildren should be owrking at by the end of the year with examples of writing and maths at the expected level and a the level above the national average.

I thought this was lal fairly normal.

Look at other primary schools locally if they won;t even tell you what his timetable is and what level he's currently at.

Oh and they also have "options" afternoon where they choose to do amongst other things Forest School, writing a school newsletter, extra sport, cookery etc

Sharaluck
The school is 60 ppl per year, 30 per class. I think they have 5 sets, with 6 kids per table per set. Literacy and Numeracy is in sets, but everything else is mixed, and often top table is paired with the bottom table to help the latter learn better. But I don't trust the sets too much; DS is in top set, but judging by Sims and Schoefield, he is now 3A - and the school graded him 3A at the end of last year. He hasn't covered topics in school that in SS would be graded as 4c/b - which the school claims that teach them at.
Also, I've only recently heard from some parents with kids in y6 that many parents get tutors and that's why the school gets good results. Not something you know when you apply for schools. And I loved this school when I cam to visit it! So I completely mistrust my judgement now.

innercity, I live in an area with well performing pupils and there is a lot of parental support and tutoring which props up the reputation of the secondary school. Frustrating!