stopped believing in decent state schools

[innercity]

I guess I need reassurance that in some parts of the country, in some areas, there are good state schools? That actually teach numeracy and literacy?! I don't believe this anymore...

DS is in Y4 in primary, which is a very desirable local south London comprehensive. Their class was consistently failed by a succession of NQT (3 in a row) and supply in between. This year they finally got the most experienced teacher in school.

But what do I see? They have not been taught formal division or multiplication (this is top table, supposedly working at 4c/4b); they do not do basic maths practice almost at all (15*3 or 128-45); maths provision is so scarce, it is safer to assume they are not taught anything.
How can differentiation work if the class hasn't been introduced to decimals, but you (individual pupil) can take decimal addition (choose that sheet) if everyone's doing addition?
OK, I explained to my son about decimals, but what kind of differentiation is that, this is just jumping without any plan?

They write 1 story in two weeks. I have taught DS spelling and he is now the best speller in class (english is his second language) - way ahead of others. How ridiculous is that?

I've checked maths and english papers for 10+ fro some independent schools and unless I work with him really seriously there is no way on Earth he can pass this in a year, not only because the topics asked there are not taught but also topics leading to topics there had not been taught or practised enough.

I am really wondering whether there is a huge cover up and dishonesty and English understatement and double-layered meaning when ppl (here on mumsnet) talk about "not tutoring," and how wonderful their child's school is??
DS school appears so creative, with workshops and art, bla bla, it's just that it doesn't do what the schools are for...

Kewcumber sounds wonderful - and this is not normal. In DS school, even homework often doesn't correspond to anything, not that they get it with any regularity. My problem is that this school is considered good by locals and parents, PTA puts huge efforts into school, I would make myself (and made myself) an outsider by trying to talk to others (about whether there are any problems).
I am not sure I am capable of evaluating schools in this country - what if I like another school and it turns out to be the same? You can never presume next year's teacher will be good. DS has good friends and the school is good in something: there is no bullying, it is very safe, and in that sense very caring.

funnyosity Yes! That's a good point! So how do you decide on a school then?

Its normal for our area - I have friends at other local schools which aren;t much differnt!

I don;t think there is much tutoring unless pupils are going on to private schools which only 2/3 out of our class of 30 do. Local state secondaries seem OK too, depending on which side of the borough you are.

Move to Richmond.

a-ha, Richmond! I've heard primaries are good in Richmond!

the thing is though if you start chopping and changing at primary level, you might upset the child's friendship groups and so on, move to a school that perhaps has bullying (which you say at least yours does not, and trust me that is something) and mess up his education in other ways......

But the school is just follwoing natinal curriculu and normal advise I beleive. We had an offsted visit last year and were only rated Good in all categories not outstanding so I thought it was fairly normal.

NigellasDealer exactly. At least another year I have to stay put. At least until I see the alternatives - or I just need to close my eyes and teach him everything until 11+ come.

No that is not setting (as far as I'm aware -disclaimer in my experience).

Setting is when all the same year level classes are split into ability levels ( 3-4 sets if it is 3-4 form entry school) for lessons, these ability groups are called sets- low, mid, top. The class teachers are given one of the sets each, so the teaching is a lot more targeted to the level of the students in each set.

A 2 form entry school really cannot do effective setting as there would only be 2 groups, so it sounds as if there is just differentiation within the class, which in my opinion is not ideal.

Maybe look for a bigger school which actually does proper setting.

Is this situation fairly new and it hasn't been like this (though I admit this is my personal experience) 20-30-40 years ago? What is/was this dynamics like?

Sharaluck - do primary school do proper setting? DS does something of this sort for maths, when halves of two classes go together to one teacher, and other halves go to another (if I explained well). Some sort of setting? Within that, they have ability tables too. But I am bemused - today DS said some kids in this higher ability maths class didn't know what 10-8 is.

I am writing this and thinking: maybe I live in a particularly disadvantaged area, and have to move to some middle class leafy suburbs (not that I can afford that, really)?

well it might not be as bad as you think - also no offence but DS might be telling you what you want to hear iykwim - how would he know about what a whole table of other kids know or do not know? Be careful this is an easy trap to fall into!

yes, there was just one child. I know I am not passing a good message about the school to DS which is not good at all...

Yes that would be setting but it is limited because of the 2 groups. Much more effective if there is a top, mid, low group. Or top, 2 middles and a low etc.

I guess you need to weigh up the pros and cons of a larger vs smaller school and go from there.

In my school in the 70s I was encouraged to get ahead with first reading and later comprehension, it was completely individualised. Maths was in ability groups and was challenging enough. There was less groupwork than in my children's schools and none of the health and lifestyle topics. So more basics, basically! Lots of nice memories of singing and art as well. No homework!

No I think leafy suburbs are worse for coasting schools! (ime)

I know infants (year 2 only) and juniors who set like this. Reception and year one don't set in my experience.

I know 'disadvantage' schools that set and it works well, I think that is irrelevant.

But I just think it is common sense to structure lessons like this, think of what the workload for a class teacher would be like if they have to differentiate for 3+ ability groups (often with a wide difference of ability) for every lesson. So setting makes this automatically easier so the planning/teaching is a lot more targeted to the students.

Yes, I think it is impossible to effectively differentiate within such a class; but I have never heard of setting at the primary level. I need to research that (I thought it only happens at secondary, and at a lot of them, not from the start and not for all subjects).

I know what you mean op
My DS yr 4 age 9. Top table in all areas, goes to year 5 for maths, as he is a 4a apparently.
He is bored, loves learning and quite honestly the teacher seems to be aiming everything at the lowest possible levels. He asked DS to bring in his own reading books as the ones in the class were to easy!
If my DS were in a prep school, he would I am sure be very average. We have friends who have kids the same age at prep schools, and the work those kids are doing is way way beyond anything my DS has been taught.
So we now have a tutor to fill in the gaps. I can't afford Prep school, but don't want my DS to miss out due to a poor teacher.

chickydoo Do you think you've chosen the school badly or this is just the current condition and parents all try to provide the way they can, teaching at home, tutors, etc. Would you look for a different school? What do you plan to do for secondary?

Just move to Richmond, there are some outstanding schools that tend to have vacancies in Year 4 and places like Mortlake or Sheen are really not that expensive, Also don't forget many private schools offer bursaries and it sounds like as a single mum you would qualify.

innercity Mon 20-Jan-14 22:51:49
"NigellasDealer overseas students do pay top dollar, but they won't be admitted if they didn't have high class education and results, otherwise it would be damaging to the University's reputation in the region long term. "

This hardly constitutes proof that they are better than the homegrown students, as you seemed to be arguing.

Faced with the choice of recruiting more of variety Very Good Student A Who Pays Top Dollar as opposed to Equally Good Student B Who Pays a More Modest Amount, vice chancellors are increasingly thinking about their finances.

Our most recent senate meeting was all about how we must recruit abroad and especially in China. This came immediately after the presentation about the university finances. Student results and quality of work produced were not mentioned. I don't think anyone was suggesting that we should recruit bad students. Only that assuming that we had a choice between good students of different types, we should market ourselves to the more lucrative kind.

(and let me say here and now that I do not feel at home with this kind of reasoning)

Btw I know several professors and even lecturers who send their children private; it's about how many sacrifices you are prepared to make elsewhere.

Yours doesn't sound like a good school at all, OP - DD2's primary has always been very open about providing information about levels if asked, and they are very very good at differentiation. Back when we were still 3-tier, they routinely got in work from the middle schools for the high performing Yr4s and brought in a maths specialist too. They also set and have always been hot on spelling, grammar and times tables. They're just an ordinary state primary in a small market town in Suffolk.

Your DS's school sounds like a school coasting on its reputation, which is bad. I don't blame you for being disillusioned, schools like this can be very good at selling themselves.

In my kids' years, there are 60 in a year, 2 classes. The kids are set for literacy, they used to be to be mixed up within the year group for phonics, but I'm not sure about that any more.

For maths only, the 60 kids are mixed up and set into 2 new class groups. One class has the top and middle groups, the second class has the middle and bottom groups. Maths is then taught in these two classes where the kids are further differentiated into 6 table groups (for maths I know for sure because I've discussed this with one of the teachers).

Otherwise they are in their usual classes for everything else.

We are a normal primary, not brilliant, not rubbish. We get given a 4 page document at the beginning of every term detailing what they will be covering in the up-coming term - literacy, maths, history, music, PE etc. We have also been told every term (either at parents' evening or through a report) what NC level they are at. This has happened during our kids' entire time at primary school, even when the school was only graded Satisfactory.

if you want to see good state schools, move out into the sticks where they are much more inclusive