stopped believing in decent state schools

[innercity]

I guess I need reassurance that in some parts of the country, in some areas, there are good state schools? That actually teach numeracy and literacy?! I don't believe this anymore...

DS is in Y4 in primary, which is a very desirable local south London comprehensive. Their class was consistently failed by a succession of NQT (3 in a row) and supply in between. This year they finally got the most experienced teacher in school.

But what do I see? They have not been taught formal division or multiplication (this is top table, supposedly working at 4c/4b); they do not do basic maths practice almost at all (15*3 or 128-45); maths provision is so scarce, it is safer to assume they are not taught anything.
How can differentiation work if the class hasn't been introduced to decimals, but you (individual pupil) can take decimal addition (choose that sheet) if everyone's doing addition?
OK, I explained to my son about decimals, but what kind of differentiation is that, this is just jumping without any plan?

They write 1 story in two weeks. I have taught DS spelling and he is now the best speller in class (english is his second language) - way ahead of others. How ridiculous is that?

I've checked maths and english papers for 10+ fro some independent schools and unless I work with him really seriously there is no way on Earth he can pass this in a year, not only because the topics asked there are not taught but also topics leading to topics there had not been taught or practised enough.

I am really wondering whether there is a huge cover up and dishonesty and English understatement and double-layered meaning when ppl (here on mumsnet) talk about "not tutoring," and how wonderful their child's school is??
DS school appears so creative, with workshops and art, bla bla, it's just that it doesn't do what the schools are for...

Inspires children and teachers - not willing to name him on here I'm afraid

Right.

I think you've been unlucky in having 3 NQTs in a row. My child had one, and she was really useless - didn't have a clue. I think that having experience makes a big difference. But schools like NQTs because they are cheaper.
It's true that there's a difference between how state primaries and private prep schools teach. IME state primaries are much more interested in allowing the children to be creative - eg in English with writing stories and poems. Private schools are much more focused on grammar, spelling and handwriting. In maths, private schools are very traditional, whereas state primaries concentrate on practical ways of doing everyday maths - the kind of thing you need to know when you go shopping for instance. In a lot of ways I prefer the state school system. But Gove is changing it to be more like prep school teaching.
If you want your child to get into a selective private school, you will obviously have to teach him the stuff that private schools do but state schools don't. State primaries are not geared at getting children through exams for selective private schools. Why should they be?
My 9 year old is learning loads of good stuff at her state primary, buzzes with enthusiasm, and the teachers do a great job in giving more difficult work to the brighter children, which I don't think is always done at prep schools.
If you're doing extra stuff with your child outside school, of course that will make a difference - one to one time is very valuable. You can't expect his school to provide that.

I apologise if I have generalised about schools in China or the far east. I used them as a reference point simply because you referred to UK placement in relation to other countries. There has been a lot of talk in the press recently about countries that do better than us, and some of the countries quoted have education systems that operate on a very different premise to the UK. They are said to be - by the people living there, who know the system - very high pressured, and it is common/normal for children to go to long hours of after school tutoring. If that is a false impression of those countries, I am happy to retract that.

I have lived in different countries, I have taught in schools overseas and in the UK. My ds did his first years in a school in Central Asia. My dh is not English, and experienced a completely different system. I have been and still am a governor in 2 different schools in the UK.

It is not my patriotism that is offended, but the blanket downer on the whole of the education system here. I know many good hard working teachers who do not fit the model you describe. I know many schools, striving hard to pull up the standard. I have just come from a meeting where the head is drilling down analysing through the statistics to find the areas where the school needs to improve, they are checking on progress and attainment for every child, they are comparing methods and good practice with other schools who are doing it better, they genuinely care about every child making progress.
You write all of them off, on the basis of your sons school.

There are good schools and bad schools. I am sorry you have come across one that doesn't suit your ds.

You say that you are commenting on the basis of history, politics, class etc. But if that is your intent you have not communicated that in your posts. You haven't commented about the history, you have commented about the system, teachers and teaching in your sons school, and extrapolated from that to the whole system.

I would be very interested to see the PISA scores for the whole of China - that the government would not allow to be released.

I'd also be interested to see the scores for India

and regardless of how well South Korea does in league tables, I'm glad the UK does not have their teenage suicide rate.

OP
You work at UCL and have had dealings with one school.
Please do not tar the whole country on the basis of that very narrow brush.

As someone who also sends her DC to school in a country/system that was not that of my own education, I have come to understand that the tacit, implicit role of school versus that of home varies wildly between countries. I see many children in France come unstuck because their foreign (and mostly highly educated and sophisticated) parents didn't do at home what the French parents knew without being told was expected of them.

Nevertheless, I suspect that many English state primaries are not all that. Every year English DC arrive at my DD's bilingual school and while in the early years they are very advanced in reading versus French DC, by Y4/Y5 their lack of sound grounding in basic skills like handwriting and times tables is always obvious.

French schools take times tables and handwriting extremely seriously. IME they are incredibly uncreative (everything done by rote/following precise instructions), and do not encourage children to think for themselves. Also, the children have a lot more fun at English schools.

It really isn't true that it is all rote learning at French school. However, the approach to things like reading comprehension is totally different. DD is taught to read for information by her French teacher while her English teacher teaches her inference and deduction. Best of both worlds.

French DC don't get enough opportunities for personal expression in writing.

I think handwriting is a complete red herring. As long as a child can write fluently, at a reasonable speed and legibly, we should stop obsessing about it. How many adults have lovely copperplate writing these days? I certainly don't - but I am an excellent minute taker, other people can read what I write easily and I can keep it up for hours. Good functional handwriting is still very useful, anything beyond that is just a waste of time.

Times tables are the essential cornerstone of nearly all maths and should be taken seriously on pain of death and dismemberment.

I think that being able to write fast, neatly and accurately at a young age is incredibly important. In the French system DC who have poor handwriting cannot keep up with the curriculum.

Bonsoir "I see many children in France come unstuck because their foreign (and mostly highly educated and sophisticated) parents didn't do at home what the French parents knew without being told was expected of them."

What is it that French parents do then? Just out of curiosity...

French parents know without being told that they need to review the DCs' exercise books with them every weekend and to top up the teaching of concepts their DC have failed to grasp (ie where they didn't get 10/10 or A). If parents don't have time they get an after school tutor (often a student).

The expectation of parental topping up is a sort of implicit home-school contract.

French parents also know that it is their job not school's to teach (via extra curricular activities that they purchase) musical, art, sport, religion.

I also feel a bit about all those stories of French teachers not being there to be nice / understanding / caring of children, but only to convey information.
The French education system is very old-fashioned, and as far as I am aware there are huge issues with it.
I went to a French school myself for a time, and have happy memories of writing in chalk pencil on slates (dictation every day), and all those nuns. We were all punished when one child whistled in the corridor and wouldn't own up . I'm not that old either.

NB I've heard dark stories about French schools not teaching any computer skills (too modern).

For me, I find the different countries a bit tricky to compare as so many other things are different like long hours, the qualifications needed to become a teacher, funding etc. I wonder if french schools are better or just diferent?

At my DD's school 80% of the French teachers are lovely, kind, decent, honest human beings.

Hmm - well mine attended an OFSTED outstanding village primary school. One is still there (Y5), the other had now joined a small independent school in Y7. I used to think the state maintained village school was good - but I've seen how my dd has flourished in just one term at the independent school after bumbling along in primary ........

DD has ICT every Monday with specialist teachers. And the DC use the interactive whiteboard all day long.

All my four nieces and nephews have been educated superbly in both France and the French Caribbean and are now in excellent universities.
The French Caribbean experience was exceptionally rigorous-allies with anecdotal reports I hear of British Afro Caribbean folk sending their kids back to their places of birth to be educated as the UK is sloppy in comparison.

I've spoken to a few non-UK parents about schools in their country. From this I gather that UK schools provide more breadth than many others. Eg we have assembly, art, music, that personal/social subject whatever it's called, PE, a bit of swimming, school council, school clubs. In some/many other countries schooling is very much restricted to core academic subjects. The children may do better in tests in those core subjects. I think I prefer my child to come out of her education well rounded and having enjoyed herself (which encourages work at home and higher education).
I suspect that UK schools are also more supportive of children who don't have much parental support or the money for tutors.

You're lucky Bonsoir, I have French friends and at their children's school they do no ICT (the oldest is 10).

I think that all the "extras" are lovely and great fun for the DC but I don't think they should come at the expense of core knowledge and skills.

And, in fact, I regularly moan about the propensity of the English teachers at DD's school to devote time to "extras" when the basics haven't been covered.

Agree about the importance of the core, but a good school / good teachers can continue to develop the core skills in the wider curriculum e.g. they still produce written work in PHSE or whatever. I am feeling very lucky that our local school seems to have the balance of traditional vs creative/fun about right.