How many working class or families receiving benefit would you find

[morethanpotatoprints]

In fee paying selective schools?
Or how many do you know?

I'm really referring to those who are one or maybe two steps from the breadline.

If you are one of these families do you think you would mix well with the parents at these types of school?

yes you do have to send ALL details to bursar
Everything

we never bothered as we knew we'd never get one but they want to know EVERYTHING

Which is as it should be

I have never met a school which has such an organised approach to bursaries they are all clouded in mystery in our local indies

It's the prep bit that I'm dissatisfied but my DS moved to senior school at 13+ with a pre test and interview at 11+ so it would have been more complicated to state ed him and we wanted boarding from day 1. I suppose my dissatisfaction is really with the individual prep school

yeah mines rubbish

but dd2 can go to indie girls school in year 7 and flexi board thank god

dd3 is staying at state primary

At my DS's school you can apply to the bursar even before your DS sits the pre test and I think even before registering to get a ball park figure for what might be offered although of course it's not guaranteed. We did this, answered all the questions on the very long form, easy when the answer is zero, but didn't submit accompanying paper work (P45 etc) as it wasn't necessary as it wasn't an official offer and got a ball park figure within two weeks. The idea is that you can then decide if you wish to proceed with the application. morethan this is unusual but you can still talk to the bursar and get a feel for one what they offer, ask about others in similar situations to you, and two whether the pot is unlimited etc.

I'm very disillusioned with prep schools!

me too

dd went to look at two others (both very highly regarded) and didn't like either

tbh she's keen to go to a senior school in year 7, theres a great one near us non selective and sporty but with fab results so that's where she'll go rather than bothering with 7 and 8 at Crap Prep

I have nothing against a parent subsisting solely on benefits qualifying for a 100% bursary for their child. Otherwise it would be impossible for their child to attend the school. I'm just saying that it is much more straightforward to decide to accept a bursary if it means that your financial circumstances are completely unaffected, than if it means that you have to pay every spare penny you have in school fees for say 7 years, thus vastly reducing your living standards as well as your ability to save anything at all towards university. It is a very different decision.

My DC has a high scholarship rather than a bursary. We didn't have to fill in any paperwork. But I strongly suspect that the size of the scholarship was influenced by how poorly dressed I was on the day of the interview! Although it is a high scholarship, I am always aware of how difficult it is to pay the excess, and the temptation of free state school is in the back of my mind.

It's surely impossible for most children to attend a private school? Or at least incredibly difficult, or there wouldn't be over 90% in state.

I think that most state school parents haven't caught on to the possibility of scholarships and bursaries, or they have caught on but are not prepared to pay the % of fees that would be required of them after the grant of a scholarship and/or bursary, or are not prepared to go through the hoops required to obtain one (with the risk of not obtaining one). And there are plenty of people surely who are happy with state and have no particular interest in private? Some people are actively against private.
Obviously, if more people applied, it would be harder to obtain assistance with the fees than it is currently.

I was speaking to the school a bit ago about the forms for reapplying for our bursaries (formality) and he mentioned that people just don't apply for them, especially from the poorest backgrounds. The people who do tend to are people like us. We're not wealthy but my dh is prep/public school educated so has some knowledge of the system. It seems people just assume that it's not for them so don't bother applying.

Although it is probably much easier for parents on benefits to accept a place knowing that they don't have to worry about top up fees I think you will find that not many families surviving on unemployment benefits long term apply for bursaries in the first instance. It isn't just the fee issues there are other concerns such as fitting in with a more affluent crowd, being able to afford school trips to far away destinations and just a feeling that private school isn't for people like them. This isn't my personal stereotype, it's just a feeling that I get and things that I have heard in the past. I think a family who are temporarily unemployed might be more inclined to apply for a bursary than a family who is long term unemployed.

My son is at an expensive boarding prep.

There are families with next to no money with boys at the school and siblings at expensive public schools, all on full bursaries. The children with these bursaries are invariably very clever.

Whilst as poor as church mice, these families are all very middle class and educated. They have both the educational aspiration to have their children in these schools and the self-confidence to navigate the process. Families nearer the bottom of the social heap are less likely to do so, so they don't apply.

As with many things, it is the educated middle classes who catch on to the opportunities and take advantage of them.
My child doesn't go on school trips abroad, although the school is good at choosing trips that are not hugely expensive. She also wears second hand uniform. It's no big deal. It might be more of an issue at a really posh school though. I'd have thought that a bursary child who can go on expensive school trips abroad is probably on too high a bursary - it's not a core part of the education.
I do think it's a shame that bursaries seem to be snapped up by fairly wealthy parents, often with children who have been to prep school. A lot of schools limit their bursaries to eg 50% of the school fees. Many people simply can't afford that, so the bursary system is subsidising the relatively wealthy.

I do think it's a shame that bursaries seem to be snapped up by fairly wealthy parents,

That depends on your definition of wealthy. A prep school near me that offers bursaries sets it's cut off point for bursaries at household income of£25k. I don't think a family with a household income of 25k can be considered fairly wealthy (the full fees are £6500 pa),
Local senior independent school sets it's household income limit at £44k. It's full fees are £11k pa, only families earning less than £22k are considered for a full bursary.
Based on those figures I can't see that fairly wealthy families are snapping up the bursaries.

Dromedary

I think you are completely right regarding state school parents not knowing about opportunities.
My dds best friend is really bright and would pass an 11+ with really good results. Her mother and step father are both members of Mensa and yet coming from a working class background have never been told of opportunities neither in their past education or their daughters.
I'm not suggesting this is the same for all WC parents, but seems to be consistent.
I'm sure they exist somewhere but I haven't come across state primaries that inform parents of opportunities for bursaries, scholarships or entering private education for secondary.
Preparation is also down to parents, which is fair enough if they are going to another sector, but how do parents ever find out.
There is also the attitude of its not for us, which I have experienced a lot. Such a shame when it would provide future mobility for the bright child.
I suppose we are fortunate that dd isn't that bright and her talents are elsewhere, it helped us to see the type of education that would suit her. Other parents aren't as fortunate not in terms of income, but knowledge.

Schools aften don't advertise on their website either.

Im ex oxbridge but very low income post husbands redundancy, and know others in similar situations. We wouldn't be able to top up fees, buy expensive uniform, trips or anything similar.

I think its highly unlikely they're giving out full bursarys left right and centre. And wed have to be able to afford petrol and time to drive to get her to one.

There's lots of bright children in state ed. Id love my daughter to have the experience of sport and extra curricilar of a private school, and good music and drama but can't see us affording it.

My DS's schools clearly states on it's website that they wish to broaden access therefore bursaries are available. Why don't more on benefits apply? It's full boarding only so that put parents off, it's super selective, that puts parents off, it starts at 13+ not all that convent for those in the state sector, the 85% not on bursaries are basically very wealthy and very posh another put off.
As already said it's likely that most on bursaries are the well educated upper middle classes and often privately educated. At my DS's school culture; art, music and drama are very big and carry a lot of weight in the curriculum I suspect those applying for bursaries very much value these things, high priority is also given intellectualism, and the boys are encouraged to be very intellectual both are integral to school daily life but also as importantly for parents it's non examined, where as sport is a lower priority again not everyone's cup of tea.
So I suspect it becomes self selecting.

Regarding Dromedary's categories of parents it might be helpful to know that bursary application forms are quite likely to mention the "economic benefit to the family" of a child being awarded a bursary. This is certainly the case with some boarding schools.

So consider Category 5, the family with only benefit income. A truly charitable school, that wants to engender success from the widest possible range of people, may conclude that the category 5 child needs the chance more, because they have fewer other opportunities to improve their lot and possibly face a grimmer future if they can't take full advantage of their braininess or other talents.

The category 4 and above families may well struggle to pay fees - but they might more easily be able to supplement the child's education in other ways.

Does that make sense?

middleclassbursary

Yes, totally agree.
If you can remember back to my first posts we were interested in 2 schools to begin with. The first school was exactly how you describe especially the culture, this is what interested us.
We would never have fit in at this school because everybody was so rich and some of the parents are really not welcoming, we found this at an organisation dd is involved with, where some of these children attend.
It is exactly as you say, we were totally put off applying.
I am not suggesting that all the parents were snobby and unfriendly or that this is typical of this type of school as I have no experience really, but this is what we found on this occasion.
The school we will apply to now is the total opposite and whilst no testing or selection academically it is very selective musically.

Children who are high achieving musically tend to be middle class. Supporting a child with music (by which I really mean classical music) takes time, money, research into opportunities, etc. I doubt that you will find many working class children applying for music scholarships. Sport may be a bit different, though we're a long way from the US culture of poor boys being taken through college because of their basketball skills!

Dromedary

I couldn't disagree with you more tbh. If you are talking about playing 3 tunes and passing an exam, yes maybe. However, the most talented children I have come across don't need supporting much, apart from taking to groups, choirs, orchestras and ensembles.
Real talent is innate it can't be bought with money
Maybe they don't apply for scholarships as much, but the most prestigious school in the country doesn't look for grades passed but attitude and potential.

whoops sorry, the ability to pay is not important neither.

When I said that supporting children to do well in classical music meant spending a lot of time, taking them to groups, choirs, orchestras and ensembles (lessons, concerts that they are performing in, music courses etc etc) is exactly what I meant. It varies from county to county, but where we live there are no county run music groups and the schools do very little, if you want your child to join an orchestra or go on a music course, it is very expensive and means a lot of transporting them around. Lessons are unsubsidised and are very expensive. And the parent has to find the opportunities - orchestras, good teachers (very hard to find), holiday courses etc. If they get into a national orchestra there is an enormous amount of travelling. Instruments are expensive, and have to be traded up as the child progresses. The child has to be allowed the time and the space to practise for a long time every day. Music is highly competitive and requires much more than just natural talent, and children who don't get this kind of support don't have much of a chance. It may well be different for eg pop music. I very much doubt that a school such as Chetham's auditions many children who have picked up a clarinet in a junk shop and taught themselves.

Dromedarey

My apologies, our music service is very good and everything is free or very reasonable. All the children are given the opportunity and the groups are all pretty central and if parents aren't able/willing to take them they would be able to get there themselves unless they were too young.
Lessons are subsidised for those entitled to fsm and there are instrument schemes for rent or cheap to buy.
I guess all LAs are different.
I don't think that the support is confined to the middle classes though, otherwise schools such as Chets and the other schools of music, drama and dance that offer these bursaries wouldn't profess that nearly all their students received burseries. They would have enough students paying full fees without the need to offer them.
I would have agreed with you in the past, but over the last twenty years there has been a turn around and more working class families are seeking opportunities.

Yes, I think our county is very probably the worst in the country for children's instrumental groups.
The music schools run a government funded bursary scheme. Of course these schools are only for the most able children, who have a real chance at a professional career, so very much for a small minority only. There is some level of bursary for middle earning parents, with higher bursaries for low earners.