How many working class or families receiving benefit would you find

[morethanpotatoprints]

In fee paying selective schools?
Or how many do you know?

I'm really referring to those who are one or maybe two steps from the breadline.

If you are one of these families do you think you would mix well with the parents at these types of school?

[Stressedbutblessed]

Sorry to jump into this but it's been a fascinating thread! My 2p is I was singled out by my junior school for scholarships for 2 super selective schools. My very WC parents refused to allow me to try as " it's not for our us- you would start believing you are better than us etc etc etc" school HM visited my home to try and persuade parents and reassure them but they were firmly not allowing me to try. ( father later beat me for embarrassing him).
Allowed to go to selective Grammar which was fantastic as it opened my eyes to opportunity. But lived everyday with my Father calling me lady muck for going to a posh school. Had second hand everything and crap stationary etc so it was obvious we were poor & As you can imagine no school friends came home as my parents wouldn't allow it.
But the fantastic thing was whilst in school no-one cared or even asked.

Grammar school wanted me to sit scholarship exams for A levels at super selective school but parents again refused. I sat them anyway as by this time I could see the way out of poverty was education.
I was accepted and my father told me if I went I couldn't come home as it was time I was bringing in some money. I went anyway and haven't ever looked back!
There were 2 of us on full bursaries.
There will always be families richer and poorer than yourself but in my humble opinion your concern should only focus on being the best that you can be whist facilitating and instilling the same ethos in your children.

[morethanpotatoprints]

Stressed

you poor love, what an awful story and what motivation you must have had to see it through when the person who should have supported you would deny you choices.
I can't imagine how hard it must have been for you and so glad you came through and have thrived.
I won't forget your story and thank you for sharing.
There was a certain amount of not getting beyond your station when I was growing up, but not from parents it was more a societal class system.
I am so glad that things are improving but it isn't quite there yet.
There is a lot in the state system for widening participation and a lot in the private sector for improving access, if only the latter was a natural progression and encouraged from the former, we would be genuinely getting somewhere.
We need to tell those who would benefit, not rely on their parents to inform them, quite often they don't know themselves.

[Stressedbutblessed]

OP- I am sure had at least one of my parents understood the education system then maybe I wouldn't have had to fight so hard. I was extremely lucky to have very supportive teachers otherwise I would not be where I am today.
My parents certainly had no clue about selective v state, feeder schools or even how to get to university.
I believe there are still children today that are in the same situation as I was. That is why I believe you may not find many near breadliners at selective schools unless they are educated breadliners who will scrimp and save to provide the best education they can afford.
( and this is why I passionately believe state Grammar schools need to be re introduced and university grants not loans re-instated to provide opportunity and motivation for breadline students)
At true breadline selective schooling isn't a parental priority and there is inverted snobbery, there was no chance my parents would mix probably because we had no car and my Mother rarely had new clothes and holidays were only every other year as my Father couldn't take time off - to a caravan in Devon:)
My father worked hard and insisted we lived within our means and didn't allow my mother to work so we had very little and this ultimately gave me the motivation to succeed.
In 6 years they attended no school functions but at least they did attend parents evening ( but didn't attend my uni graduation).
Hence stressed but blessed

[Svina]

Interested in what dromedary says about classical music education being for middle class children. I think I agree. Don't underestimate how tough it can be for parents to do all that fetching and carrying. To agree to do in in the first place, and then to stick it for years. There are some wonderful schemes modelled on el sistema where children get all the instrumental, musicianship and ensemble delivered in school, which is fantastic for the children who get that opportunity.

My children are fortunate, and have a fantastic music education. But the fact that I have to take them after work, when I have poor health and no car makes it really exhausting.

[GoodnessIsThatTheTime]

Wow, no music system like that here morethan. Ive looked. First thing our children can do is lessons in school at 8, no choice of teacher, and it costs lots.

We are no longer on fsm as husband is working but very low income. Without being on fsm we aren't entitled to any help. We simply cant afford it.


There's a lovely orchestra that plays for children every few months near here we used to go to. We now can't afford it.

I would desperately like my children to get a musical education but can't see that we can.

So I agree its for the middle classes, or at least for those on a decent income. We're middle class but poor, and really struggling to supplement the children's education in the way we would like with music, theatre and after school activities.

[Dromedary]

Goodness - if you do some research you may find that you can find free or cheap musical activities for your children. Even where we live, where the County cut all its music groups a while back, there are ways round the problem, to some degree, if you work at it and are flexible.
I'd suggest:

1. check what county subsidised music groups are available (if any). Also group lessons - makes learning cheaper.
   
2. check what local choirs accept children - you may find that there is a free choir near you. Singing in a choir is a good way for a child to get started with music, as they don't need to have singing lessons before starting in a choir. School choir is better than nothing.
   
3. check whether there is any local brass band that has a children's section. These vary, but some lend instruments and provide free teaching. If they charge, it is likely to be cheap (as run by volunteers not to make money)
   
4. check what other music groups are available - the odd one may be cheap or even free if run by volunteers
   
5. you could consider setting up a children's music group run by parents and doing everything as cheaply as possible
   6)check out the local amateur operatic groups, and let your children audition for anything suitable. Being in a show can mean masses of fun rehearsals for months on end, building up to performing in public. And doesn't cost anything.
   Keeping your eyes open makes all the difference. Eg an instrumental course has been advertised to us for my DC - it costs £70 per day. I have subsequently found out about a similar course, run on a volunteer basis rather than profit-making, and it costs £12.50 per day. We also manage to go to quite a few free concerts and music festival events. Not specifically aimed at children, but still worth going to. Again, you have to keep your eyes open for this kind of thing, and be prepared to give things a go. My DCs are frequently the only children at an event or in a music activity!

[GoodnessIsThatTheTime]

Thankyou for your reply. I've been googling...

No county groups in my area, there are in other parts of the county. Group lessons may well exist in school, but these don't take place in the infant school.
Again no choirs, although I think there might be a basic one at the middle school.
Haven't found brass bands/groups but will keep my eyes out as she gets a bit bigger.

I didn't get the chance to be musical (my parent's weren't. Lots of books, great education otherwise, but no music) which is fuelling desire for the children to have a chance.

I need to work out how to make some extra money....there's so much I'd like them to have the opportunity to do!

[Dromedary]

I'd suggest that you teach yourself recorder (it's really easy, just get a basic teach yourself book and you'll realise that anyone can do it), and then teach your DC. "Recorder Playing in Colour" is great for young children (recommend you use something different for you though). The recorder is a great starter instrument - it's a proper instrument, but also easy to learn the basics of music on, which then transfer over to other instruments, and very cheap and difficult to break.
Also do some singing with DC, can use books with CDs to help with this. Plus the recorder.
If you know like-minded parents, could join together for some of this. Who knows, one of them may play the piano to accompany the singing.
If you do recorder and singing and going to any available free events for a couple of years, it will be good preparation for being taught by a professional teacher /joining a choir when a bit older.

[GoodnessIsThatTheTime]

Thank-you :) We have a couple of recorders in the house. I will have a look out for some things we can start looking at.

[Svina]

Our schools do not do choirs either, but there is a choir at a nearby church, which has good progression... Ie you can sing for pocket money at services when the children are bit older.

[morethanpotatoprints]

Goodness

We are a pretty degenerated area but the music service has always been pretty good.
However, it is the same as others in terms of visiting peris, it does cost for lessons unless fsm, and you can't have lessons in school until y3, then they are resticted to certain instruments.
The county music service uses local high schools after school and children can have lessons here, for the same price as they would in school, usually by the same teachers.
There is a county Jazz orchestra, big band, wind band, string ensembles x3, recorder group, brass band, youth orchestra, perhaps a few more. These are for the whole county though and serve all different levels of players. For example youth orchestra you need to be a grade 6 player. There are groups for begginners too. Oh, I forgot the two exceedingly good choirs junior youth and youth.

I know there may not be many who have such a range but I'm sure all county music services have to supply some.

Have you tried your council website, under education, then music?

[Dromedary]

You're wrong, Morethan - our county music service literally got rid of every single county run music group. It does provide some funding to its selection of privately run music groups, but they are privately run and I assume can charge parents whatever they choose to. Certainly some of them charge a great deal of money. They also compete with one another by running their sessions on the same days, so children can only join one, which is very limiting if you have more than one instrument or type of music you're interested in.

[GoodnessIsThatTheTime]

Yup - I know how to google! There is literally nothing in our area. The website just says there is an instrument loan scheme and something about supplying teachers in schools, but my daughter is at infant school.

The area I used to live in had a "hub" or something where kids could go on a saturday morning very cheaply. Nothing like that here!

[middleclassonbursary]

If you want your children to hear live music it's worth contacting your local independent school and see if you can listen to their concerts, DS's school holds at the very least 2 concerts a week often 3, these are open to anyone and they're free, my DH's old school (big name London independent) does the same thing.
DS's school also does at least 4 plays a term (the standard is extraordinarily high) and again tickets are free.
My parents took me to many classical music concerts some I hated and fidgeted all the way through, some were ok and others like the carnival of the animals and the Mikado I never forgot, but now I'm old I can see that all these concerts sparked in me a love of classical music and spurred me on to learn two instrument even if my motivation was to play the swan or the flowers that bloomed in the spring which still makes he smile to this day.

[morethanpotatoprints]

I know our service sounds good but even here you have to pay for lessons and groups, it isn't provided free. Lessons in school only start here in y3 too, you just have to wait until then or pay for private lessons from somebody outside the ed system. This can be even more expensive but I know some parents who have done this.
I think it is dreadful that not all music services are the same, it makes it a post code lottery like so many other things in education.

[Svina]

Goodness... That is terrible. Where do you live? Is it a rural/ isolated area? I would have thought most big towns have got something going on like a brass band, which might not have anything to do with the council... Or like I mentioned a church youth choir, which again might not be mentioned on the council website.

I'm not disbelieving your ability to google, I'm genuinely surprised.

[summerends]

I'm not sure if this is correct but my impression is that for classical style instruments the only way for children to have a cheap / free lessons is either to have a parent or friend who can teach you or to be a chorister.
Even cheap county music groups cost money although initial trial sessions are sometimes free

[morethanpotatoprints]

summerends

Yes, you are right to a certain extent, just on our area in my experience.
As I said even though we have what many would consider a good LA music service, you can only have lessons in school or outside through the authority from y3 upwards.
If in receipt of fsm you can have subsidised lessons, instrument hire and ensemble fees. Everyone else has to pay and for many it isn't cheap at all.
Our dd had private lessons from aged 6 but dh teaches her one of her instruments, the rest we pay for.
However, LA music service ensembles cost £35 per term and you can join as many as you like for this price. So £3 per week does not sound much to me, there are also discounts if you have more than one child attending.
I know there aren't many authorities like ours, but believe there are a few in the SE that are similar, maybe more expensive though

[Dromedary]

That is amazingly good, morethan. Where we are being a member of just one of the ensembles that used to be run by the council costs £300 per year.

[summerends]

As said before it all seems to be a lottery. The costs for ours are not as much as yours Dromedary but nowhere near morethan's.

[morethanpotatoprints]

It saddens me that we have such a good service that offers all this but then somehow it doesn't seem to do much good for dc to specialise as they get older.
Within a short distance are 2 really good music schools. Very rarely do dc from the area get to go to these schools.
The same benefits are offered to low income families in the form of bursaries and grants and yet only a very few in the area get to one of them.
The one that dd wants to attend has nobody, that I know of.
The only conclusion I can come up with is nobody is telling the parents.
It can't be a financial issue as fees are paid as I have said up thread.
It continues to mystify me.
Maybe its a case of people thinking the schools are too high brow or too rich for them. I'm not sure.

[Dromedary]

If it's a matter of nobody telling the parents, that could be put right very easily.
Are there many high level young players in the local ensembles? Children at specialist music school are expected to practise for several hours a day, and to be aiming for a professional career, so it is obviously a big leap to make, and towards a competitive and uncertain future. Can your DC report back on where the children at her specialist music school come from (is it from wealthy families in London and the South East)? I think that most people tend to do what those around them are doing, rather than going out on a limb with a very different type of education.

[Svina]

I would feel very uncertain about applying to a specialist music school for my dc, should they be of the right calibre when they are the right age.

1. I worry they would struggle to fit in with a different class of children
   
2. I would feel less confident about a boarding school because there is less opportunity for me to monitor how the dc are, and support them if it is tough
   
3. I would worry about the amount of stress my dc would be under in such a competitive environment
   
4. if they were to hate it and want to come home they would find if very hard to get into the ok school in my locality, having missed admissions.
   
   Our family would be in the middle class, state educated, full bursary category.

[Svina]

Are there many high level young players in the local ensembles?

You don't get to be a high level young player if the support is not given at an early age.

We are very fortunate that our regional orchestra has a music school attached which offers excellent musical education from age 5 for which bursaries can be obtained. But by the sounds of this, it is pot luck

[LauraBridges]

Stressed, wonderful story of overcoming such a negative family.

On the music side as people have said you can do stuff for nothing - we borrow much from the library or can print some from the internet (if you can afford internet access and a printer I suppose). If the parent is music they can teach the child at home - we did which costs zero. As someone mentioned singing is free and recorder almost free. The working classes used to do loads of singing, at work, on the way to work at weekends and that has all passed away or a lot of it. Working men's clubs had choirs and brass bands. Children were in the local church choir which is free of charge.

Why did the working class abandon cultured things> I know that's a controversial statement but there used to be more of an emphasis on bettering yourself, reading Shakespeare at home (my grandfather left school aged 12 and taught himself - fierce efforts to educate himself and the family and his children getting to university, becoming doctors etc, moving classes). Has that all been lost - that desire to read good literature, sing Bach in church. Is it all dumbed down guitars and pop music?