Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Education

Join the discussion on our Education forum.

Education Underclass

182 replies

OddSins · 28/11/2013 18:02

Having exhausted the "Superclass" thread, there seems to be support for this conversation.

By way of approaching it. Do we agree there is one, who are they, why does it exist and what can we do?

Ill leave my tuppence worth to later.

OP posts:
Grennie · 30/11/2013 16:39

I have heard parents say to children that their teachers are stupid, that they shouldn't listen to them, that they don't teach children anything worth knowing. Of course this has an impact on children.

bigkidsdidit · 30/11/2013 17:26

But that's not an educational issue, is it?

I agree with you entirely on the rest of it and the need for a revolution, mind you

Metebelis3 · 30/11/2013 17:28

But, I think it equally important that they be sociably personable too - to be articulate, to know when to speak up, or to listen...when to smile and laugh appropriately...basically to learn the 101 tiny social signs/behaviours which really smooth your path in life - and which make people respond favourably to you.

That's not cultural capital.

Metebelis3 · 30/11/2013 17:34

word ^bigkids say your DC wanted to be a barrister and you couldn't afford to send them to bar school, couldn't afford to keep them through mini pupillages, pupillages and the lean years of tenancy etc Couldn't afford their gowns and wigs and special dinners at Inns of Court, then all your PHDs in the world won't help!

There are so many opportunities closing now to everyone but the wealthy and well connected. It's not right!^

I agree with all that, but that has nothing to do with Bigkids's children's education. It has to do with the depth of her pockets. If you were saying, all the chambers in the UK have decided that they will only accept kids who have attended, say, Winchester. And to hell with everyone else! Then you would have a point specifically with regard to the quality of education available to people, and to the composition of an educational underclass (for the purposes of being called to the bar, anyway).

The opportunity to do music properly is becoming very restricted to people who can afford to pay, or people who have literally nothing, who get it paid for them. But it is not true or fair to say that music education is not available in schools other than the handful of uber posh ones, whatever stories they may tell parents they are trying to ensnare. If you can pay, you can get a great music education wherever you go to school. If you can't pay, you can too. If you could sort of nearly pay a bit of it, that's when you are stuffed. :(

bigkidsdidit · 30/11/2013 17:40

Mete I think we are a hive mind Confused

Metebelis3 · 30/11/2013 17:47

All hail the Great One...Grin

DavidHarewoodsFloozy · 30/11/2013 18:00

kenlee the poor are poor because they are lazy

Just what did you get your doctorate in? Talking complete and utter bollox?

LaQueenOfTheTimeLords · 30/11/2013 18:02

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Talkinpeace · 30/11/2013 18:12

wordfactory
I was just thinking about the point you made earlier
If that huge majority accepetd they were all being short changed, they might force a shift in expectation
and one of the really important recent changes that has made opportunities for "the rest of us" to narrow so significantly is unpaid internships
When my sister left her vehy posh school she used parental connections to get her holiday job
but she was paid the same as all the permanent office juniors
nowadays those organisations get away with the work being done for free by those who can afford to live off Mumsy and Pater

so one of the biggest changes would be to outlaw ALL unpaid internships.
Volunteers - yes fine, but they have the right to not turn up and there is no fixed term
but all apprenticeships / internships / pupillages should be PAID
(and the bosses at the Bar, the media and in the city can most certainly afford it)

Did you know that the Grauniad pays boarding school fees for the children of their staff posted abroad, no matter how much they earn

TheOriginalSteamingNit · 30/11/2013 18:13

But if we are talking about money for pupillages etc, and the fact that PhDs won't get you it... Aren't we just talking about the fact that most people aren't all that wealthy? Rather than about an educational underclass?
Because yes, of course, the majority of people are indeed in the same boat as regards finding that sort of money. Even those with PhDs, as stated.
But what has that to do with an education underclass?

JustGettingOnWithIt · 30/11/2013 18:13

*If that huge majority accepetd they were all being short changed, they might force a shift in expectation.

Whereas, if we pretendthat the problem only really exists for a tiny minority, then where does the pressure come from? It's no really worth doing anythig about, is it?*

Word while I struggled a bit with the idea of who you’d include, I totally agree with what you’re saying.

TheOriginalSteamingNit · 30/11/2013 18:17

Alternatively, if a small minority weren't told they were the only lucky ones because everyone else is disadvantaged, perhaps that would help too?

Talkinpeace · 30/11/2013 18:19

The educational underclass cost all of us a bloody fortune (prison costs more than Eton).
The Pupil Premium is heading in the right direction to address it
but joined up thinking between social services, health care and education is essential.
Unfortunately since Gove demolished the LEAs with his Academies and Free schools, that joined up thinking is more limited.

Getting support workers in early to help support disorganised families and persuade parents to allow their children to value education costs a lot up front (never a strong point with jerks like PFI Broon and Cameroon) but saves many, many times that amount over 30 years.

Talkinpeace · 30/11/2013 18:20

Linked to the point about pupillages : why should bright but average income kids even bother to try for certain careers when they know that the uber rich will glide in on a sea of cash?

DavidHarewoodsFloozy · 30/11/2013 18:35

Well it kind of is " cultural capital" with some professions, next door neighbours lad went off to Bristol for History, cause "of course he wants to go into law"
Says I " what the fook has he done Cynth, quick! Get onto UCAS, you can call from here".
Much polite laughing from Cynth, and explanation from herself and my dh. And now I know.
As proudly w/c I can say " there are things we know, things we think we know, and things we don,t know we know.
And even if we knew, we haven,t the contacts.

pickledsiblings · 30/11/2013 20:34

"Getting support workers in early to help support disorganised families and persuade parents to allow their children to value education costs a lot up front"

You're right Talkin, it would be money well spent though wouldn't it.

The Head of our primary (small, rural) does home visits for every single child before they start in reception and she can easily identify those families that are in need of help.

Would it be useful if Heads were obliged to do this? I guess it would be pretty difficult to get around all the kids going into YR in a large primary but it could be done, especially where catchment areas are small.

Golddigger · 30/11/2013 20:48

Glad this thread has been brought back to the op's heading.
I am actually finding the thread a bit disrespectful that it keeps going to law and pupillages etc.
I am not the thread police, but there are plenty of other threads to talk about that stuff.

Golddigger · 30/11/2013 20:50

No one seems to be able to tell me about Sure Start. Surely they were orginally designed and started to deal with this exact thing?
I am several years out the loop of all of this now, so Sure Start may well be doing excellent work in this area for all I know.

TheSporkforeatingkyriarchy · 30/11/2013 21:21

I think part of the clash on the crossroads on this one is the differences in looking at those who cannot access the curriculum and opportunities and those who cannot access the curriculum and opportunities because of home circumstances. The latter is a subset of the former and I think some of us are talking about one while others are talking about the other.

I was one who was unable to access the curriculum or many opportunities because of home life and would certainly put my child self as part of an educational underclass because of it. And my parents were upper middle class, very good income and very connected in the community - they were also violent drug addicts and my mother particularly wanted fame. When I could no longer take part in her training because of medical condition her words, still ringing in my ears at times, was that at least I had enough training to be a stripper. A couple with earnings well over 6 figures, have two children who needed help with alcohol before legal age and all three children living well below the poverty line now as adults because we could not access the curriculum and were denied opportunities because of their chaos. And we were not alone - one of our posh schools had a 'self-help group' which was the guidance counselor trying to give kids from our backgrounds with chaotic lives coping tools because it was at that time too hard to get services involved in that post code and by then it was quite late for most of us. We weren't lazy, we were just trying to survive and it broke most of us, all in different ways.

My children on the other hand have trouble accessing enough of the curriculum and opportunities because of where we live and our socio-economic groups. I would put them in an educational underclass because where we live means they will struggle far more to get those basic qualifications and opportunities are hard to come by - we live in an education black spot. Less than half of the kids at non-selective schools in my area will get the basic 5 A*-C GCSEs or equivalents and I can't believe that is all down to chaotic home lives. The people who are meant to help, like my children's support worker, have pretty much refused to discuss anything about education, opportunities, socializing, problems they're facing and how to cope and instead just talk about things. She dismissed my daughter's struggle to find friends and laughed at her when she said she wanted to be a doctor, to instead ask if she wanted new posters for her room and talk about adding some flowers to our garden.

It isn't about which kids have which dreams, it's about children - and adults - being denied access to making real choices in their lives. That denial isn't happening only in the home, it's a society wide problem that reaches into schools, support services, and into the education curriculum itself along with media into who gets represented and how they get represented. Many of us are fighting and clawing and begging for help only to be told that we're worrying about the wrong thing and wouldn't we much rather discuss the colour of our walls. It's very frustrating, especially with the message that we are in this situation only because we're lazy and chaotic and just need sensible people to tell us what to do when those sensible people are the ones throwing our children's hopes and concerns away.

Talkinpeace · 30/11/2013 21:23

Goldigger
some sure starts are still there : where I live its huge
but most have had their funding cut
the trouble is that the "sure start" funding is not allowed to cover parents
it stops when they start school
and families with violence tend to be pushed out (like they no longer need the support ....)

Broon funded SureStart out of the never never (like most of what he did)
and in most areas - there were five in my city, only one survives - they were hijacked by the sharp elbowed (plus ca change)

it is too narrow and centrist in its outlook

DH and I were discussing this over supper (he works in education outreach, hence my obsessive interest in threads like this)

such spending should be devolved down to the lowest possible level : health visitor / midwife team leader selection
rather than centralised targets from boarding school gay 20 year olds in London ....

SatinSandals · 30/11/2013 22:34

That is what is so sad, TheSpork......., that is where they could really help your DD and yet they are worse than useless.
I don't know much about Sure Start, except that I believe their funding has been cut.

funnyosity · 01/12/2013 00:17

Spork, your post reminded of a teacher of mine in sixth form who announced he'd just looked at the exam papers and they were "dead hard" and he didn't think he could do them. He moved on subsequently to a social support role within education.

Do your kids respect and take any notice of the adults with low aspirations that they are meeting? I just recall being irritated by that bloke's attitude (and there were other similar teachers tbh) though now I appreciate that he was very personable and did organise interesting extra-curricular stuff.

Don't know how old your children are but at least my friendships did improve massively at sixth form as there were more studious types from different schools all put together and the need to adapt to survive that had blighted age 11-16 had passed! In fact couple of my aspirational pals from that sixth form inspired me far more than the teachers.

JustGettingOnWithIt · 01/12/2013 07:07

It isn't about which kids have which dreams, it's about children - and adults - being denied access to making real choices in their lives. That denial isn't happening only in the home, it's a society wide problem that reaches into schools, support services, and into the education curriculum itself along with media into who gets represented and how they get represented. Many of us are fighting and clawing and begging for help only to be told that we're worrying about the wrong thing and wouldn't we much rather discuss the colour of our walls. It's very frustrating, especially with the message that we are in this situation only because we're lazy and chaotic and just need sensible people to tell us what to do when those sensible people are the ones throwing our children's hopes and concerns away.

yes!

SatinSandals · 01/12/2013 07:14

I think that it about children not knowing they can have dreams and with parents who don't empower them to have them.

JustGettingOnWithIt · 01/12/2013 08:50

But shall we only talk about that group, and pretend the lot immediately above who want change, will work for change, and can see who’s often stopping change, and might be able to help bring it for many of those families too, are OK, and all we need is professionals put in place with the absolute bottom group to do their job for them, and everything's OK?

My LEA would agree with it, lets concentrate on shock horror situations only. It's a great way of removing attention from what happens when those parents or their now adult children have learnt the basics, and are still left high and dry, but now neatly hidden away, and we like to pretend that’s not true because then we have to look at the truth of how many professionals are part of the problem too and how the trickle down of hopelessness and pointlessness passes through the lot one level up who try and still get failed, which feeds into why bother further down.

Swipe left for the next trending thread