why are some women content to do all the housework?

[honeydew]

I meet lots of mums in my local area who, like me, are stay at home mums with very young children but are prepared to do absolutely everything for their partners and DH's! They slave away cooking, cleaning and washing at home with no help and at the weekends, they still don't expect
their partners to do anything! I have friends who never get a proper break from their children, even if it's only for a couple of hours. Their DH's leave them to it 24/7. Is it just me who has found that old style patriarchy is alive and well in society once a woman gives up work to raise her brood? My DH does help me with baby DS, he also puts my older daughter to bed and washes up after I've cooked each night, so we work as a team. So many women I speak to say that their DH's are not 'hands on' parents and do virtually all the chores and baby changing/feeding. Oviously, if one partner is working during the week they can't do that much, but some men don't want to contribute at all it would seem! Are they just lazy or simply 'expect' women to fulfill that role?

One thing about the types of acievements is the recognition. Nobody really cares about my potty training dd2 outside my immediate family but loads of people care about my student's A grade and that achievement can be shared with student + her family + colleagues + classmates etc. This kind of recognition is something any mum, let alone SAHMs, can miss out on which is why Mumsnet is so useful!

Hey BAWC if your ds pissed his pants every day at school and later, in the office, they'd soon noticed you hadn't done the job properly.

FM I think one of the reasons people get so agitated when it's suggested that women go and get work, pensions, insurance etc., is because very rarely in the same breath is it suggested that men should downgrade their hours, attend more school assemblies and wield the vacuum cleaner with far more regularity - particularly by government ministers. So basically what is being suggested is that families take on more work, rather than that the work to be done (both at home and in the cash economy) is more evenly distributed. And so it makes the debate unbalanced, because it simply ignores the non-paid work that is absolutely necessary and unrecognised. (But I know, you can't caveat everything...)

blackandwhitecat, I am very lucky that both me and DH have got jobs with very family-friendly hours and I am very happy in the UK.

Caligula, I totally agree about the debate being unbalanced. So much is expected of women, and men can just carry on. I am sometimes amased when I see how little the lives of some of my male friends and colleagues change when they have children.

I think people have responded to what you wrote, and yet again I could bring up lots of quotes from you that suggest YOU PERSONALLY believe that SAHMs of school age kids should be working. Are you denying that this is your position?

Are you also saying that you didn't say that young women are giving up potentially exciting, valuable and important academic careers and later vocations) because they think they should or want to do what their mums did. ??

Are you also saying that you used postive words to describe working and only negative ones when talking about SAHM

I do think your comments about you NOT wanting your taxes to be used to support women who are not 'contributing' to society are abosultely saying you don't approve of SAHM. Can you not see why I think this???

I do understand that you think SAHM get a raw deal, that there is possibly a tendency to be fatter or more depressed and I see that you care about this. You also worry that these women don't have pensions, but then you say you don't want your taxes to help these women in later life as they should be out there working!! That you don't mind paying for better childcare, but you do mind paying for mums to look after thier kids. This is why I have a pronblem with your stance.

Personally I work full time as I have said, BUT I feel that all women should have the choice about working or not, yes some of this will come through better and more flexible working practices. But there should be equal weight to the arguement that looking after your children is a worthwhile choice. THAT is the attitude that needs to change in this country. It is not about the numbers who work or not. If the government put equal weight into saying staying at home with your kids is a valuable option and vital for the country then it would filter down. As it is lots of people, including you, feel that it is the 2nd best option. I don't think it is the 2nd best and I think a lot of MN feel the same way.

I do get job satisfaction, I run and have run a number of national magazines and yes I love seeing my mag on the news-stand. BUT finishing a jigsaw with my 7 year old still beats anything at work.

dont forget working class mums hve never had the choice traditionally.

have always worked as finances dictate - thats what fucks me off about these "debates" becuase tehey are not really what really happens is different sections of middle class britain all jumping higher than the next sayin " i am contributing"

1. some people dnt have a choice
2. sahms who do have a choice - should IMO carry a greater share of the housework.
3. sahms with a cleaner and a cook - arn't allowed an opinion
4. WOHMs who have a cleaner and a cook arn't allowed an opinion either
5. housework is dull dull dull dull dull - thats not my opinion its a fact cos i say so.

if you can afford to stay at home - bully for you.

some of us have never had an effing choice then have to live with the organic brigade pouring on the uilt - whilst ironically saying that WOHMs are despariging them - which they dont - some are envious - and the rest don't give a shit am sure.

so remember - some people dont have a choice.

i am major bread winner in my house - that means dh is my bitch.... ok not really.

my position - really and truly regarding sahms who dont work whilst kids are at school is they are either dull dull dull to put up with that life - or they are dull.

and they should work. lazy efkkers

but for fecks saks stop making parenting an effing career.

how immensly rubbish a parent are you showering you children with your everything you have. when they leave you will wait for the clock with tick tock tick tock - oh its sunday ds will be here soon. so sad.

what are your life achievements - well my ds is priminister of england and my dd is priminister of wales.

really?

yes i am fab mum me - they are highly edumicated i gave my life to them

oh how dull

Custy, I don't have a choice either. BUT I am trying t push for women to have that choice, rather than to be told that working is the only way forward as I am not paying my taxes for you to stay at home.

men dont have a choice either lets forget - what choice are we pushing for here? the choice to stay at home?

for who?

those who arn't on benefits?

so only rich people can proclaim - "i am sahm and we eat organic and never wach telly and my kid reads confucious"

Um uyou can achieve and be a sahm Custy? charity colunteering, for example.

Don't know why I am defending SAHM's so heavily as am not really one (well sometimes) and I do get bored (but not fat) when I am, but I also know loads of people who successfully make it their happiest times.

(Can I reiterate that it takes all sorts again? LOL)

thats not the norm though is it.

i mean as we are generalising - lets generalise.

OK choice perhaps is not the best word to use.

What I would like to see is that looking after the kids (by either parent) is given as much kudos as being a teacher and filling in UCAS forms or whatever. I would like to see a society that values parents and parenting. Not one that says you are nothing without a job.

Yes there will always be people who have to work, and people who don't have to. There will be those who continue to live to work and those that live for their kids. But I would like to see all of them valued as different but equal IYKWIM (utopia here I come!!)

Mothers feel guilty die to the pressures society puts on them. From the moment of conception there are warnings from complete strangers about food and drink, but you still can't get a seat on the tube. We are told to feed our kids home grown organic produce and breast milk, but not everyone can. We are told to get out to work, and that mothers are damaging their kids by working (Usually in the DM) combined with staying at home means you will be fat and depressed!!

I want a society that recognises differences and treats people in the best way possible. One size doesn't fit all IYKWIM but it doesn't mean if you are bigger or smaller you are less good!

Yay crunchie

Um, the only time I'm bored at home is when I have to do my paid work. That's the dullest bit of my life. All the other bits are reasonably OK. I'm crap at housework and find it very boring, but the good thing about manual labour is that while you do it, your brain is your own- you can think about interesting things and you can listen to the radio which may be interesting. Whereas if you're in an office having to concentrate on a task because it requires brain-power rather than brawn, that's far more boring. I think you're in danger of forgetting that most paid work that most people do, is hideously boring Custy, and survey after survey generally shows that most employees would give up their jobs if they had the money.

now you've killed it crunchie - who can argue against that "everyone should be valued"

i have a dream.....

i dont know anone with a job they think is broing - stressful maybe.

and of course i'd give up my job in a second - if we had money and a cleaner.

Oh b*ocks I was enjoying myself

BTW I am not bored at work honest I am just having issues which MN is taking my mind off. Right now I would quit if I could

I think the best thing the government could do would be to make childcare more or less free or at least very affordable and if you wanted to stay at home with your children you could get the money you didn't use for childcare paid into your account or some kind of pension scheme. I think as long as working parents pay a small fortune towards childcare it's not so suprising many of us are not too keen on the idea that our taxes should go towards paying women to stay at home rather than making childcare more affordable. You would really have to invest in both. Once children are at school, however, I don't really see a great argument for why women needed to be paid to stay at home. Surely this country do need tax payers too?

The choice I'd be pushing for is the same as Crunchie's - the right for the invisible unpaid work mostly done by women, to be valued as highly as the visible paid work mostly done by men.

And of course, to make sure that we create a climate where men do more of that invisible unpaid work and so lobby to do less of the visible paid work. Because as long as we keep pretending it's actually no effort to do and you can fit it in, in between running multi-national companies, going to the gym and working on the latest fashionable sexual position, women will continue to be doing the lion's share of it and coming on websites whingeing that their DH's don't "help" them. And also, nothing will change in the paid workplace and we'll continue to give up careers we might prefer to keep, if only they would allow us to function as mothers as well as workers. IMO the two things are inextricably linked.

not dead yet then

Cruchie, I've only got 1/2 way through your post but already I've come across a couple of things that actually I have never said.

Yes I did say, 'young women are giving up potentially exciting, valuable and important academic careers and later vocations) because they think they should or want to do what their mums did.' And? It's true. Which is not to say that bringing up kids is not exciting etc (remember I do that too) but yes, it I do find it sad when a young girl of 18 for example who had the capability pursue a career in medicine for example decides to spend the rest of her life bringing up her children and then cleaning her house when they are in school. Or even if a doctor, lawyer or anyone of say 35 male or female who has and is capable of making a significant contribution to society through their paid or voluntary but highly skilled work to bring up kids and never returns to work or takes a break. I've seen many young women do this and many who've regretted it very bitterly. My father teaches mature students (mainly women, mainly mums) who have come to education in their 40s or 50s having never had a career and not gaining many qualifications and many (no, not all and no that doesn't meant this is the case for even the majority of SAHMs) really, really regret this. Yes, I personally think this is sad esp when this is not something we expect of men.

'Are you also saying that you used postive words to describe working and only negative ones when talking about SAHM' I haven't. I've used the word 'valuable' many times to describe the work of a SAHM. Please remember that I stay at home for 2 days a week and 13 weeks of the year with my kids on holiday. Yes, I know that's not the same as being a full-time SAHM but it does mean I know what it's like to bring up kids.

'That you don't mind paying for better childcare, but you do mind paying for mums to look after thier kids.' No, I've said many times that I would gladly contribute to mum who stay at home while their kids are pre-school and contribute to make after-school care better.

Please stop accusing me of things I HAVE NOT SAID OR EVEN THOUGHT.

Caligula, I actually began by saying that men should contribute more and have said that IM (very humble) O house-work should be shared throughout the family. When I am talking about family-friendly hours that's what I mean hours that are better for the whole family not just letting mum knock off work early so she can do paid work and then go home and do all the child-care cooking and cleaning too.

My dh is a teacher too who actually works shorter hours than I do when I go to work 8.30 ish till 3.30 ish so we share all the child-care (when he's at home and he also often takes kids to nursery and picks up) and all the house-work pretty much. Our paid work doesn't stop at 3.30 as I said we continue when kids are in bed and take turns to look after kids so other one can work during wkends and holidays. It works for us. Yes, we're lucky to be teachers but we partly chose teaching because of it's possible to work and have a family though not easy. But there are many 100s of women and men in the country who have similar or different arrangements so they can balance work, house-work and child-care.

But bawc, I think my point is that as long as we continue to undervalue housework, so will men - and the blighters won't do it. And not only will they not do it, they will denigrate their wives who do do it and feel entitled to keep all "their" money because actually, little wifey isn't doing anything at home all day. The house is tidy because that's the natural way houses are. Too many men still think like that and the view that housework is rubbish, encourages them to denigrate the people who do it - ie their wives and partners (who do "nothing" all day, in their worlds).

Does anyone remember what Mrs Thatcher's answer was when she was asked how she relaxed?

"Housework"

I always thought that was just another of the iron lady's ways of putting all the other women in the country in their place.

If you look at my first paragraph I made the point of saying that this is based on women who have school aged kids. 'yet again I could bring up lots of quotes from you that suggest YOU PERSONALLY believe that SAHMs of school age kids should be working. Are you denying that this is your position?'

So I am being careful and pointing out that you only feel this about SAHM who have kids at school.

'I don't see that SAHMs who are at home cleaning it while their kids are in school are contributing to SOCIETY' to quote you again

I maybe reading your posts wrong, but I don't think that I am mistaken in thinking that you believe all women who have kids of school age should be working out of the home (unless of course there are other circumstances that prevent this). That this is the way that YOU feel is the right one and don't want your taxes to help pay for these womens pensions in the future. Am I understanding this or not??

What is wrong with WANTING to stay home and look after the home and kids if you enjoy it.Every one contributes to society in their way.I mean what are people who work in macdonalds doing apart from selling sh*t food to the masses ,they are working but what does society gain from it.

Has this kicked off then?