why are some women content to do all the housework?

[honeydew]

I meet lots of mums in my local area who, like me, are stay at home mums with very young children but are prepared to do absolutely everything for their partners and DH's! They slave away cooking, cleaning and washing at home with no help and at the weekends, they still don't expect
their partners to do anything! I have friends who never get a proper break from their children, even if it's only for a couple of hours. Their DH's leave them to it 24/7. Is it just me who has found that old style patriarchy is alive and well in society once a woman gives up work to raise her brood? My DH does help me with baby DS, he also puts my older daughter to bed and washes up after I've cooked each night, so we work as a team. So many women I speak to say that their DH's are not 'hands on' parents and do virtually all the chores and baby changing/feeding. Oviously, if one partner is working during the week they can't do that much, but some men don't want to contribute at all it would seem! Are they just lazy or simply 'expect' women to fulfill that role?

"I wish society didn't expect so much of women rather than expecting working men to do all this extracurricular stuff as well. Having a demanding full time job outside the home AND making it to every parent consultation, music class pick up, swimming lesson, school play - and doing this year in year out for the whole time your child is at school - is IMO an awful lot to expect of any working parent. "

Too *** right SB!!!! It's basically only possible if you compromise on EVERYTHING...work, family life, housework.

If I was lucky enough (sorry but I would feel really lucky if I could do it!)to be at home with my children then I wouldn't bedgrudge an hour a day to do some housework so that when my DH got home we could spend time doing stuff as a family and he could enjoy the children. I really resent having to get down to another job when I get home from my paid one and if there was any choice I wouldn't expect DH to do it. Housework is tedious, repetitive and demoralising - much like many paid jobs - looking after children is so much more satisfying; why should the working partner come home from one tedious job to do another.

BTW an hour a day is quite enough to keep my house in a reasonable clean state - not perfect but as now-one apart from me appreciates perfect it's good enough.

Still can't beleive this debate turned into another SAHM v WOHM debate.......

neiher can i- its 2 seperate arguments

you get what you expect

I expect when DH is home we do 50:50 housework / childcare ... actually its more like 70:30 but as he does the 70 who cares

ok, well i think i may be an exception to the rule as DH works ridiculously long and hard hours. as a result we're well off and he expects to retire in his 40s. i'm a SAHM (gave up a pretty well paid job to do so). we have a cleaner once a week, but apart from that i do everything else (monday to friday that is - luckily DH doesn't have to work too much at weekends). it's a division of responsibilities we're both happy with, so why should anyone else be upset by it?

Apart for the wonderful well off bit, Tutter, ditto. I do the house, he earns the dosh. Have a cleaner to make life easier. End of story.

Mummyhill dons hard hat and enters the fray.

I work part time (evenings and weekends) DH works 8.30 - 5.30 in a physically demanding job. We have 2 under 5 and I have to try and fit in all the hswrk around work and the children cause althought he is fairly hands on with the kids he is useless round the house.

A kind soul who decided that I was not getting the help and support they thought I needed/deserved decided that the best course of action would be to contact social services to see what they could do for me. This resulted in 4 weeks of hell for me. Trying to do everything I normaly do and de clutter our house and scrub it from top to bottom. At the end of this I am told by the social workere that they are concernec that I am trying to do too much so I get a referal to homestart to give me a bit of help. So far as I can tell this help consists of preventing the 4yr old from killing the 9mnth old whilst I get on with the housework. Yeah great such a lot of practical help. Ohh and a patronising letter telling me that the case has been signed off but that I need to keep my house clutter free to promote my childrens development.

Any one want to tell me how to keep a two bed house completly clutter free when you have 4 people living in it, work till midnight three nights a week and all day saturday and no one else helps with the housework wether you shout, cry or even have social services in the house on a weekly basis policing everything?

I love being at home with the children but really would appreciate more help round the house but I don't think you can change a mans attitude towards hswrk.

Right, so now I'm rude and mad and selifish and it's ok to question my finances and the fact that I work (but none of this is you lot being rude??). It's the first time I've ever heard that teaching is selfish and not very special or important and no one really enjoys it though!! If this is how you feel about teachers I'm surprised you entrust your kids with us or do you all home-educate as well as do all your own cleaning? I already have huge respect for my dd1's teacher and will make sure I tell her so because I know she's not just doing it for money (I've never met a teacher who is) and she has already gone out of her way to help dd1. Again, I appreciate,everyone's experience is different, and maybe all of your kids have terrible teachers.

It's nice that there are other people who think I've raised some valid issues for discussion. And yes I can see now why sahms are so defensive about their position. I realize that some people will interpret questions as criticism perhaps because they have to deal with criticism from other sources fairly regularly.

What does make me cross though is the way I'm being accused of saying things I just haven't. I have never criticised sahms but some of you have criticised working mums. I think looking after kids is v valuable and skilled work and should be paid. I actually work part-time 3 days a wk and, when my kids are in school, will adjust my hours so that I do work till 2.30pm. I therefore will not miss out on my kids' growing up or homework or anything else. I do my marking when they are asleep and I am out at work when they will be at school anyway. I appreciate this is not easy for many people to do and I have said this is a problem that needs to be addressed. I have many colleagues (who also love their job so they're probably mad and selfish too) and friends in other jobs who use after-school clubs and holiday clubs and it works for them. Some are lucky enough to have help from their parents too which I am not. If you have no quality child-care where you live that allows you to work then I think that's terrible but if you choose to stay at home then that's FINE. Enjoy it.

Beattie, I think you've misunderstood my financial position. We have separate bank accounts (always have and prob always will). We pay for out joint bills pro-rata but our incomes are our own. It works for us but I'm not suggesting you do the same. I would not tell anyone else how to live their life.

As regards, housework, in my house it is shared not not done although by the sounds of it we do less than many of you and I maintain that I don't think a huge amount of real knowledge and skills is involved on the grounds that I have never seen anyone who can't clean only people who won't. If some women set up a scenario where no one can clean their house as well as them and anyone else's attempts are criticised then it's not surprising that they don't get much help and others (some men and some kids) don't get much practice.

Neither dp nor I find cleaning rewarding although I suppose there is a sense of satisfaction in having a tidy house. If you do find it rewarding then that's great.

As regards the research on the health of sahms, if you don't believe it or it makes you angry perhaps you could take it up with the researchers. I wasn't one of them and I said before it could well be flawed I just found it interesting and actually it seems fairly common sense to me that many (not all and I'm sure not any of you good mumsnetters) long-term sahms find that over-eating and isolation are problems (yes, as they are for many other people and people in many other jobs).

blackandwhitecat - why did you turn instantly turn this debate into a SAHM v WOHM argument. I too see it as a separate issue.

There are plenty of mothers who work out of the home who also do the lions share of household chores/who claim to get great pleasure from cleaning their homes/who don't have pension funds or life insurance and who would also be in dire straights financially if something happened to their partner.

Nothing in life is so black and white.

Agree with what you say Caligula and I mentioned more family-friendly employers and flexibile working hours myself earlier. I do think attitudes and values need to change about housework though. I don't think it's helpful for it to be considered women's work or even full-time work. I personally would not be happy to pay taxes to help pay for one woman or man to stay in her or his home and clean it while her or his kids are in school. That's just my opinion and while I may change otehrs I won't change this one. 100 years ago being a house-wife was a completely different job pre- washing machines, hoovers and women's lib.

Thanks gem - you're living up to your name.

Beattie, I didn't. I think (not prepared to check as have got to go) I said how much housework you do and can expect your dh or dp to do depends on whether you are a sahm with kids at school or not. I said if you were a sahm with kids at home you shouldn't be expected to do v. much housework any more than you would expect your child-minder to do any. and then it all kicked off.

I think its hard to throw off centuries of conditioning in a couple of generations. My father was brought up to believe that it was unmanly for the husband to be in the kitchen (I think my grandmother made a comment like that in my mum's hearing when he was making up bottles when me and my twin brother were babies) Certainly it would have been unthinkable for any man to do laundry or cleaning. I think that my grandmother did have to work for financial reasons, but this wasn't something to be proud of, and she would have seen it as letting the side down if she had needed help from her sons or husband. A generation later, my husband does most of the cooking, irons his own shirts and does cleaning without being asked. The difference between him and me is that for him housework is a completely neutral activity - I don't think he worries about his friends judging his fathering skills if the washing up isn't done. Even though I know my grandmother's attitude was wrong, I can't shake off the feeling that good mother = well run house.

Another issue is that until you have looked after a baby/toddler/pre-schooler full time, it is difficult to appreciate how demanding and exhausting it is. I think some fathers simply don't realise that there is more to it than sitting in Starbucks all day, and I think that it is more likely that partners of SAHM's will have had less opportunity to have sole care of their children, simply because the need doesn't arise so much.

Just so it doesn't appear I am vilifying you B&WCat I'd like to say I agree wholeheartedly with this.

"I do think attitudes and values need to change about housework though. I don't think it's helpful for it to be considered women's work or even full-time work."

But I'm not convinced that woman/men who don't instantly rejoin the workforce use "I have to clean my house all day" as their reason.

I really think that dusting and vacuuming, cleaning the bathroom and washing the kitchen floor take very little time. But I sometimes feel overwhelmed by the amount of extra tasks that have to be completed to manage a household let alone a household which involves children.

I agree with cod. I don't think being a SAHM is that difficult once they are past babyhood TBH. I have a 5yo and a 2yo and if I was a SAHM I'm sure I would find it dead easy. As it is I work 3 days a week and struggle to fit as much as I want to into the other two days. And I think if I was a SAHM and did no housework during the day I would be taking the piss and not contributing to the household sufficiently.

BAWC The thing is, being the person that was angry at your assumptions yesterday, I do understnad you position. However I felt the language used and the things you said were degrogatory to SAHMs. You say they were not, OK I accept that.

I agree with you that housework should be shared equally in an ideal world. However as you can see here some women actively enjoy housework (!) and see it as part of their job description as a SAHM. If I were in their position I think I would too - particularly as my kids are now at school. However with young pre-school kids there needs to be give and take. Sometimes standards can be lowered, other times both should do their bit. What I hate to see is people like Mummyhill trying to do it all and their partners (can barely see them as partners as they don't seem to share much) do s**g all. I do think it is important for us to teach ALL our kids to help around the house, some of us have partners who do help, some of us don't. But if we ensure that ALL our children can look after themselves and a house, then next generation will find it that bit easier. It isn't something that will happen vernight, but if I lok at my parents and my life, I have moved on, my DH does do housework (he dad did nothing) I only have girls but they will see their dad doing stuff too. When they grow up hopefully it will be more equal.

I don't think though that your stance on SAHMs being unhappy/unfulfilled is necessarily true and I did feel your language when spouting off about work achievements only served to show what you think of women who don't work outside the home. You have said on this and other threads that you cannot understand women who don't work once the kids have gone to school, that you are worried for them. Perhaps they are happy - least some of them are!!

"The difference between him and me is that for him housework is a completely neutral activity - I don't think he worries about his friends judging his fathering skills if the washing up isn't done. Even though I know my grandmother's attitude was wrong, I can't shake off the feeling that good mother = well run house."

Yes, and in my inlaws house, man who changes nappies, puts children to bed and helps to cook dinner = father who goes beyond the call of duty, excellent father, pat on the back. No mention of wonderful mother who does all those things too

its gubbins about sahm and obesity...i read that study it was tiny and flawed.

object to the insinuations that sahms are thick overweight loo scrubbing doormats

B&WCat - I believe it was your 12.24pm post which started to get some people's backs up.

"And there's that recent research which suggests women who do (paid) work are healthier. Isolation and obesity are real problems for many long-term SAHMs."

That is not to say that I would expect to do it all. Monday is our cleaning day. So yesterday I cleaned all the house except the kitchen and floors (DD scared of hoover). I also made a meal for DH, DS and DD, did the school runs, watered the garden, did 2 loads of washing and line drying and did DS's reading book. DH got home from work, did the hoovering, ate with the children and bathed them. We put one to bed each and then I went out for a meal with friends, while DH cleaned the kitchen and mopped the floors and did another wash load. Seems OK to me!

I wonder.... are there any SAHPs out there who don't do any cleaning up or housework during the day?

Well probably not. I was just reacting to the posts that said that all the responsibility of a SAHP was childcare. Although I suppose nannies do laundry/cooking etc.

I think the best way to look at it is like being a nanny. Nannies are expected to cook for and clear up after the children. The problem is, when you're at home more with your children, a house gets naturally untidier/messier. Aren't children great? so it would be a very strange breed of SAHP who managed not to get their hands dirty at all whilst caring for their children at home.

I'm aiming for somewhere inbetween the stereotypical obsese slob SAHM who sits on the sofa all day watching Trisha and scoffing biscuits whilst ignoring ALL domestic chores and the stereotypical 1950s housewife who ensures the house is pristine and all chores up to date by the time her husband comes home from work.

I hope I'm right in presuming that most other Mumsnetters who don't work fulltime outside of the home come somewhere in the middle too.

I try to do as much as possible really so that we have less to do in the evenings. Although that is on a Monday. On a Friday I sort of consider it to be an early start to the weekend.

Haven't read all the thread. WHy do I do all the housework (and work 3 days a week) - because I'm a mug.

i thinkI am too tired to get into a debate about it. I am no lover of house work but DP will do none if I don't do it. I battle with depression and amessy home makes me feel hemmed in and generally worse. Before I slipped a disc I used to do all the gardening too but now it'sleft to him and weeks go by before the lawn is cut. When my back was bad he did no house work and we lived in a tip.

Not sure how to change things as simply no doing it doesn't make him change.

The thing is my DH gets in at 5 most nights so between 5 and 7pm (when DDs go to bed) no one gets a rest. It is a hectic time. But mostly, everything is done by 7. I suppose I do more myself if DH has a meeting and is home later.

Drosophila - "I battle with depression and amessy home makes me feel hemmed in and generally worse".

God yes.....me too...I don't thnik I can claim that I suffer from real depression these days but it hovers in the background. I get a bit manic when the place is a total tip but I can't get my DH to see that at all. A basic level of tidiness and cleanliness is so much better.

Put otherwise 'life is calmer with clean carpets'