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Education

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Original poster

How do we ensure all UK children regardless of back ground/ability receive high quality education?

644 replies

happygardening · 10/05/2013 10:20

Contrary to what some may think I'm not anti state ed and as someone who works with disadvantaged children it really matters to me that they receive a high quality broad education and they fulfil their potential. But sadly in many cases they are not (there are I know exceptions) frequently their parents cannot assist them for a variety of reasons.
Is there an answer to this problem or are they condemned by their circumstances which are not of their own making to remain at the bottom of the heap?
No judgey DM comments please.

OP posts:
Erebus · 14/05/2013 20:31

Talkin "What I am saying is that since "parental choice" kicked in".
It never did. Parental preference did, mind.

How many DC does MB send to Oxbridge? via, PS, of course? Interested.

Bonsoir · 14/05/2013 20:32

The US has one of the worst high-school drop out rates of the developed world.

Talkinpeace · 14/05/2013 20:32

Tutoring of MC DC in comprehensive schools hugely disadvantages those DC who do not have tutors
Why?
It brings the whole standard of the school up.
Kids are in sets and streams anyway :
my kids are not tutored (other than nagged by me) and they are in the top 10 in their cohort of over 300.
If the top set is all tutored kids, that in NO WAY disadvantages the lower sets. It actually frees up more resources for them.

Talkinpeace · 14/05/2013 20:35

Erebus
Oxbridge 5 or 6 a year and around 30 to RG.
PS takes around 60% of MB, BP another 30% and the other 10% do Sparsholt or leave school altogether.

Bonsoir · 14/05/2013 20:36

Tutoring gives teachers a distorted view of the impact of their teaching. They think they need to do less than they really do in order for DC to progress. This is widely documented in France (where shadow education is massive).

FadedSapphire · 14/05/2013 21:21

Shame ofsted can't see which schools coast on their home tutored children and pretend they have done all the work....
Shame potential parents can't see that outstanding results may have bugger all to do with the school....

seeker · 14/05/2013 22:00

Do you think teachers don't know which of their class has been tutored?

FadedSapphire · 14/05/2013 22:05

But do Ofsted take it into account....

FadedSapphire · 14/05/2013 22:08

Rhetorical question...

Xenia · 14/05/2013 22:09

Lots of homework isn't always a good thing. My daughter reminded me this weekend that at her school there was no weekend homework or holiday homework ever (school rule, top 1- 5 school in the UK). My son reminded me that at his school they had a rule of no homework in holidays ever. If these very good academic schools can manage that and certainly mind did not have tutoring (you shouldn't need it if the school is good and you're quite bright) others can manage. At the moment my sons are doing just about all homework in breaks at school. I am sure that is not ideal but it certainly makes the evenings rather lovely.

FadedSapphire · 14/05/2013 22:17

A relative of mine sends her children to an 'outstanding' state primary. She has home tutoring as all the other parents do; they panic each other into doing it. Ofsted noted [seeming surprised] that although outstanding results no sign of outstanding teaching. Idiots if they do not see that this school is coasting and preening itself over results that are majorly influenced by private tutoring.
Xenia- I think your school's homework policy sounds healthy for weekends and holidays.

Talkinpeace · 14/05/2013 22:18

Xenia
Mine get very little evening homework either.
The consensus view from their teachers (and from other teachers DH has spoken to) is that the huge amounts of homework at some private schools are more about fee justification to parents than pupil learning.

Evenings are for music, sport, dancing, and sideways learning (OK tonight it was Eurovision!)

TheOriginalSteamingNit · 14/05/2013 22:19

It's the 'you was' that gives it away, isn't it?

FadedSapphire · 14/05/2013 22:23

TOSN- this is the second thread today where you have confused me!
What is my tired little brain missing?!

Talkinpeace · 14/05/2013 22:24

Choccy
The NHS and the public schools are not really comparable : and charity Law has been tightened up in the last 20 years.

And frankly, fee paying schools are not the big problem : they are an excellent tax earner for the UK from overseas pupils, no country has ever managed to abolish private schools.

Its the disparity of opportunities within the schools paid for out of taxes
(eg all girl Jewish schools or all boy Muslim ones) that are not appropriate.

MomOfTomStubby · 14/05/2013 22:26

I can't speak for other schools but homework at DS's private school isn't about fee justification. The school operates an university type tutorial model. The pupil's homework is to prepare for the lesson. That way the teacher can focus on teaching during lesson time as opposed to introducing facts for the first time to the students.

TheOriginalSteamingNit · 14/05/2013 22:31

Sorry, faded! I think there may be a revenant hanging around, that's all!

losingtrust · 15/05/2013 07:44

Agree. My children's state schools ESP the primary had a little homework policy and none over holidays. The school council created this policy which was in line with the head's view who have spent a lot of time in Norway. He is of the view that outdoor classrooms, music and enrichment such as forest school is more beneficial than lots of homework at primary. It is still a great performing school. The result some parents complained and moved theirs to private primary where they get lots of homework and exams from age 5. Whoopee.

wordfactory · 15/05/2013 08:00

So we're suggesting that instead of a system where the brightest are taught elswhere, that we keep all DC together but the brightest have tutors in the evenings after school?

And this is fairer, how?

And this helps the other 90% how?

And this helps the top 10% how?

Seriously, I think that might be the worst suggestion I've ever heard!

lljkk · 15/05/2013 08:01

I hope no one is saying that it's lack of selective education that causes the US to have a high school drop out rate. Shock

no country has ever managed to abolish private schools.

Um, not even China, North Korea, ex-Soviet Union, ex-commie ones?

There is so much elitism revealed in this thread & in the defence of private ed as a morally superior choice (defend that as wanting to get the very best for your children if you like, but don't be ridiculous by pretending it's a nice thing to do to rest of society); and as for mass selection in state education, it's the most elitist maneuver of all. Say what you like against American society, but we haven't descended to that level yet, thankfully.

losingtrust · 15/05/2013 08:02

There is a panic for tutoring due to early streaming at primary. Nobody wants their child in the bottom group. SATS at the age of 6/7 are the main cause of this and as many have said tutoring can lead to lazy schools. This seems to be all over now. It used to just be in 11+ areas but now there is pressure to get your child to level 5/6 at the end of primary to get into the top stream at the comp. It does bottle out at secondary though when the tutored kids start to move down. Some schools have parents who continue to tutor all the way through secondary and this for me is the problem with state education. It is very level driven and the round education that us oldies received is being sacrificed as a result but how to persuade parents not to tutor? It is the pressure to keep up that is more to do with the parents than the kids although my DS and DD have both asked for tutoring to get to the top table so some of this competition is coming from them too which is where it should come from buy if they just practiced off their own backs rather than having a Tutor that does them more credit. DD now 8 was writing out all her times tables last night off her own back to get into the 99 club at school. Maybe more challenges within school are the answer rather than parent driven and this is my issue with too much parental involvement not engagement in education.

MomOfTomStubby · 15/05/2013 08:11

losing - what works in Norway or Finland does not mean it will work here. It's like me arguing that Hong Kong proves that lots of homework is beneficial.

Various studies have shown that kids from disadvantaged backgrounds often receive no stimulation at home. No trips to museums, talks over the dining table about global warming, no trees to climb or forests to explore. Many start school barely literate.

In my/our leafy burb the Norway model might work but that would be because there is additional parental support. But in an environment where there is no/little support those kids will just fall further behind the kids from the leafy burbs.

RussiansOnTheSpree · 15/05/2013 08:13

Nit - well, yes, but perhaps not quite so much as the initials?

losingtrust · 15/05/2013 08:14

So Mom. You take them to museums, on nature walks and get them talking. I grew up in a deprived area. No tutoring but my school did all of the above. No homework. The result I had an interesting and round education that made me want to continue learning rather than being switched off by education because I was not on top table at age 7. Tutoring happens if these areas too.

losingtrust · 15/05/2013 08:16

Neither of my DCs could read when they started school. It never held th back because at their school they start formal teaching a bit later.