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Original poster

How do we ensure all UK children regardless of back ground/ability receive high quality education?

644 replies

happygardening · 10/05/2013 10:20

Contrary to what some may think I'm not anti state ed and as someone who works with disadvantaged children it really matters to me that they receive a high quality broad education and they fulfil their potential. But sadly in many cases they are not (there are I know exceptions) frequently their parents cannot assist them for a variety of reasons.
Is there an answer to this problem or are they condemned by their circumstances which are not of their own making to remain at the bottom of the heap?
No judgey DM comments please.

OP posts:
Bonsoir · 14/05/2013 19:27

So when the only form of selection is postcode... what happens?

Bonsoir · 14/05/2013 19:28

And when does selection kick in? Year 10? Y12?

MomOfTomStubby · 14/05/2013 19:29

Talkin - earlier you was quite scathing about the Young Turks who thought they had the answers. Unless they had been doing this for 15 years like your DH they couldn't even begin to understand the problems you said.

Did you just admit to seeker that your DH doesn't have a solution either? So the difference between your DH and those Young Turks is?

So you don't know what the solution is but you think that having parents like me at your school will improve it. How do you think that happen? I mean, I'll simply hire DS a tutor. How will that benefit the school?

Sorry talkin but it sounds like you don't have any well thought out answers

losingtrust · 14/05/2013 19:32

I believe Birmingham Lea tried to organise catchments so they gave a mix which meant we did not get into local school and had to go to a different Lea. The mix at that school was varied but it is still a great school. A bit annoying for us it was at the bottom of our road but actually if all Leas did this - it would lead to a greater mixture of families which would not necessarily dumb down the results because especially at primary (unless it is just mine) kids tend to very competitive and want to prove despite some parents and it should have an overall increase in effort and attitude especially with strong discipline. Even large class sizes can produce good results and in fact the reception at my Dcs outstanding school had 60 in the class but three teachers and three assistants giving more targeted assistance although all learning through play.

Bonsoir · 14/05/2013 19:32

"I'll simply hire DS a tutor"

and you could add: "and keep a shrink in business".

Because that is what happens when DC have no escape route from postcode catchments that play at social engineering.

losingtrust · 14/05/2013 19:35

It is at our outstanding mc school where everyone has a tutor.

losingtrust · 14/05/2013 19:36

The result of everyone having a tutor less pupil support.

BoffinMum · 14/05/2013 19:41

Sorry, I should explain the arithmetic. The 25% is derived from the total spent on education in the UK including independent school fees, which is one theoretical way of looking at it.

An analogy might be the way total US healthcare spend exceeds that of the UK, but it has inferior infant mortality rates and lower life expectancy amortised over the whole population, so if you think about the total benefit to the population the value for money element looks poor. Even though people like me, with private insurance etc are probably able to access world class care when they want to.

So in this case, on the one hand, you are indeed providing an indirect subsidy for the state in not taking up a state school place, but on the other hand, there are other less positive indirect consequences to this action. It's complicated.

MomOfTomStubby · 14/05/2013 19:51

Bonsoir - I don't understand the shrink comment. Unless you think that all children who are tutored are damaged children. If that is your point then there is a heck of a lot of damaged GS and Indie kids out there.

Bonsoir · 14/05/2013 19:52

No - it's not the tutor that damages the DC, but the über-heterogeneous classes.

losingtrust · 14/05/2013 19:53

All the children in my area are tutored for SATS and sometimes the school offers its own equivalent of tutoring. Blimey some kids are at kumon from age 3 and continue at Indy school.

wordfactory · 14/05/2013 19:55

And won't it be really draining for DC to have tutors after a day at school? Presumably they'll have homework too!

When will they sing in choirs and play sport (and watch Friends and text their mates)...

Bonsoir · 14/05/2013 19:58

I would hate my DD to have a tutor every day - I want her to do other things after school! As it is she has an English tutor (though this is not related to school) but we squeeze that in on Tuesday lunchtime.

losingtrust · 14/05/2013 19:59

They will not be allowed any of those activities. No less than Level 8 in piano plus several foreign languages will do first and then you get to play!!

choccyp1g · 14/05/2013 20:01

Bit of blue sky thinking here...

Many of the private schools are charities...so it wouldn't cost anything to nationalise them as the government wouldn't have to pay any "owners" to take them over.

It would just be a case of changing their charter such that their admission rules were the same as all the other state schools.

Similar to what happened to many charitable hospitals when the NHS was started.

Private boarding schools could simply change their admissions to the same as the existing handul of state boarding schools.

losingtrust · 14/05/2013 20:02

Do agree with you on the over tutoring though. Mine is learning abacus one night a week with me going as well. That is her tutoring -she beat me tonight. Little Miss! We are enjoying it. My ds asked for tutoring because all his friends were having it in Year 5. He had not realised what was involved. 6 weeks was enough!

Talkinpeace · 14/05/2013 20:06

Bonsoir
I'm not sure what you mean about "when does selection kick in"
Here in Hampshire, all of the non Catholic state schools are non selective till 16.
After 16 we have colleges that specialise (like Sparsholt)
Personally I'd rather there was academic 6th form at schools but that is what I grew up with.

TomStubby
I am deeply scathing of people who say they have the answer.
If it existed, it would have been adopted across the world by now.
What I am saying is that since "parental choice" kicked in, social mobility in the UK has declined (as per the ONS)

The US system is catchment only - and yes, the result is not equal
BUT
things like the Pupil Premium are really good, targeted ways to get the funding to where it is needed.

You have to remember that my catchment school was in the bottom 18 in the country for several years
which is why my kids do not go there
BUT 500 of their friends at the successful school also live in the dire catchment ....
if we all HAD to go to the local school it would not be so dire - not would their current school be as excellent.

Bonsoir · 14/05/2013 20:09

In all education systems, selection kicks in somewhere. In the French state system there is no selection (other than postcode) until 15. In the Netherlands there is selection at 12. Etc.

MomOfTomStubby · 14/05/2013 20:12

My tutor remark was in response to the argument that my pushy-ness will improve the academics at a less then great state non selective.

Faced with minimal homework and sub standard teaching my solution would not be to hammer down the HT's door demanding action. Instead my solution would be to hire a tutor. Given the accelerated teaching that my DS currently gets having a tutor for a few hours a week is hardly going to make his brain explode from the so called pressure.

So can someone explain to me how having me at your school is going to improve it for your children+

losingtrust · 14/05/2013 20:14

We had selection at 16 to no grammars. The schools were all streamed though. It worked well.

Talkinpeace · 14/05/2013 20:14

Bonsoir
But do you mean exclusive or inclusive selection?

Spartsholt has no academic limits : but people move hundreds of miles to study there.
Totton College is non academic - but some of their courses have over 90% employment rates
Peter Symonds sets 5 A-C as its "selection" but that's no great shakes as the other colleges have already catered for the others

the point is that selection by a single exam is just daft.
selection by offering different routes is eminently sane.

Talkinpeace · 14/05/2013 20:18

Tomstubby
My kids are at a comp.
Everything from future Oxbridge and Tory Leaders (he wishes, bless him) to tractor drivers.
And yes, my kids get little homework so I make them do extra.
But so do the parents of all the other kids in the top 60 in the year.
Meaning the teachers get a fillip and have the energy to teach the carrot crunchers.

In a school with only carrot crunchers, the good teachers will not be there.
In a school with only pushy parents, the transformational teachers may not be there.
Mix it up and give everybody an opportunity.
You'll save it later in your prison costs taxes.

Bonsoir · 14/05/2013 20:27

Selection means just that: instead of comprehensive schools, schools and pupils start to select.

Bonsoir · 14/05/2013 20:28

Tutoring of MC DC in comprehensive schools hugely disadvantages those DC who do not have tutors.

Talkinpeace · 14/05/2013 20:30

Bonsoir
The USA does not do it till 18. Much of the UK ditto.
Sounds good to me.

Selection and compulsory education are incompatible with fairness.

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