Think Carefully Before Opting for Private Education

[PRMum2012]

i am a mum of two (23 months and 3 in august)I am self-employed, part time and married to a lovely architect. We have a great life and two happy kids.

On paper I would say I have not done too badly with my life and my aim is to work full time as soon as possible now my kids are a bit older. If the work was available I would happily work full time now.

Despite setting up my own business I can't help feeling like a failure that I can't afford for my own children, what my parents did for me.... It annoys me that I put so much importance on it ... I am now passionate about finding a decent local primary school for my children so they don't feel the same pressure i do now, when they are older and looking for schools for their kids ....but i'll be honest ......assuming i can afford it i would try and do it from 11 if i can....!!!!...

Hopefully by then, my kids will have an input too and they will be forming their own opinions on the issue.

Depending on mortgage and family support I can't see that it's possible for anyone with two kids earning under £80,000 - £1000,000 + (as a family income) to afford private education anymore, my advice is unless you have a thriving business or two, work as a dr, lawyer or banker.... Forget it.

It's really hard to watch my younger sibling do it for her kids, they are paying for private prep while we cant afford it.... But it really upsets me I feel like this... why can't I just be happy for them and quietly satisfied that I don't need to pay on top of my taxes for my kids education.

For my own primary education i went privately, tried the local school for secondary education but was bullied so moved back to the private system.... I had a mix of private and state during secondary - my second private school was amazing but the second state school I attended for 6th form (my choice) was great too so why is this all having such an impact on what I want for my own kids.

My DH is much more laid back, he went privately all the way through but doesn't place as much value on it as I do/did....I wish I felt the same way but all I feel now is pressure to earn more money so I can pay for them both from 11.

It's definitely happening in more areas than just London, in some major UK cities - certainly the one where I live in, and it's happening very quickly too.

Morethanpotatoprints - we are in the same situation, we could just about afford private but it's going to be tough so at the moment just waiting to consider all our options. Home schooling is great, especially with a musical child, my DD would love to do that too. Bit early days for us yet though.

In London it is more concentrated. People move schools or streets. Change their shopping areas etc. Gentrification actually increases segregation.

I don't think white flight is a nasty term but I suppose some people might mean it to be so. It is just descriptive of what seems sadly to be happening. I agree it is nothing new. Its equivalent has always been seen whether it be mostly Chinese in a Chinatown or Orthodox jews in Stamford Hill or whatever. What tends to happen in the UK is over time people integrate (Jews mostly have for example) so ultimately it may not matter. There was a recent news item about it but I cannot remember where.

I agree it is not the best accurate word as I suppose it could be used for people leaving an area which became mostly Polish or Indians leaving areas where Somalis abound.

wonder - WF has nothing to do with being MC. I mean West Bromwich was largely a white working class area. Same with the parts of London that we are talking about.

In the case of West Bromwich the WC whites simply moved to neighboring predominantly white WC parts like Walsall.

Nothing wrong with the expression 'white flight". It expresses exactly what is happening.

I think in some places it is a different, more insidious problem than simply one groups of people getting up and leaving. What I was seeing in Brixton was parallel communities developing - everyone walking down the high street together, all shopping in Morleys but the schools and social places almost completely segregated. After the Brixtonian shut down, there didn't seem to be any pub or bar that was mixed.

It was quite hard getting play dates for my daughter as her African friends seemed to spend all weekend at church - the church communities were huge. No one ever seemed to want to come to our house and we were never invited to theirs.

In the end my daughter ended up socialising primarily with an Irish girl in her parallel class and a white middle class girl who didn't go to her school but they went to nursery together.

I just worry that this kind of parallel living is not sustainable over time. People aren't mixing, there are none of the benefits of diversity, only suspicion and distrust growing. And it is being cemented at a very young age, in the schools.

My private school is a mixture of Brits, Asian, African, Oriental and a smattering of North American and European. DS's BF is a Sri Lankan kid while DD's is from Italy.

I often smile to myself when people post that they want a state education for their DCs because of the diversity.
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I have family members who have sent their children to the less high attaining of two possible schools because the high attaining school has a significant majority of non white pupils. Very odd.

I think they might mean more than ethnic diversity......

Spero - people like to hang out with people with the same interests and lifestyles. I don't see anything wrong with that.

In your case, the other parents are deeply spiritual. You don't appear to be so. In my case I wasn't into getting totally pissed every weekend so my friends at uni tended to be Asians and Chinese.

I don't see it as an issue if it is by choice

If I do send my daughter to this private school, judging from the web site and the brochure there is one child who isn't white that appears in photos. Maybe there are others but not deemed suitably photogenic?

So clearly not all private schools are offering opportunities for different races to be educated together. And what worries me is that is precisely the reason some parents chose them.

I a not saying you have to hang out with people who don't share your interests etc.

But if you chose to grow up utterly distinct from others in your community, this cannot be a good thing. Suspicion and distrust breed. Racism abounds.

What I don't understand is that when segregation is state enforced as in South Africa or the US, it is universally decried as an appalling thing, but when it happens 'by choice' its fine and dandy.

Be grateful if someone could explain, as I just don't understand.

I don't agree with you about the other stuff but our brochure and website is also full of pictures of white kids playing cricket and rugby. The school is 30% Asian ffs.

It is very hard to generalise. I am from the NE. We had only one or two girls at my private school who were not white and that would be the same in the state sector. In outer London where my children go to school the private schools have many many more Asians proportionately paying school fees compared to other groups because education is valued very highly so they are in a sense over, not under, represented in the academic private schools.

I remember my daughter when at school mentioning the tall white girls from boarding schools who played lacrosse against her school where many girls are Jewish or Indian and smaller and shorter - same issue with Netball except when they played the almost all black state school netball team with very very tall girls of African origin.

Most of the UK is 8% non white I think. It is only in a very few parts that these issues of mixing etc are relevant.

I don't think we do have a major problem with segregation by choice in the UK. Most areas are 92% white anyway and areas where there has been some white flight are probably no different from what happened in the East End of London 50 years ago. People then tend eventually to end up being mixed in pretty well as we're a fairly tolerant nation however it certainly needs to be watched.

The difference is that in one case the State told black people that they could not mix with white people.

In the other, the Christian families didn't want to mix with your non-Christian family.

Anyway, in London a school catchment is often only a few hundred metres radius from the school gate because of population density. How come your DD was in a class that did not reflect the ethnic make up of the local community?

Spero - There is a big difference between state enforced segregation and personal choice. You are an example of that - you could choose to send your child to a school where she was in a minority and nobody stopped you. The problem is, you can't really have genuine multi-culture, you have pockets of different cultures, because you need a certain critical mass of people to be able to continue a culture with. You cannot fulfil genuine cultural requirements if you are the only example of that culture: cultural practices are supposed to be group experiences, a means of getting communities together, that's their point. The alternative is to create a new mass culture that everyone wants to join in with and that rejects past religions and practices, or turns them into things without meaning. Nobody has really come up with a meaningful mass culture for everyone to follow, yet (thankfully?...)...

Back to the question of parents' aspirations, a friend who has been VERY stressed about putting her dcs through the 7+ and 11+ respectively has told me, now they've been semi-successful (one achieved the second choice), she's told them she'll never forgive them if they don't pay her back by going into a profession. She says if they "betray" her by pursuing arty careers she'll die.

Spero - In my part of North London/Herts border what I see more of is segregation by education levels of parents and income, rather than colour.

Move your child to my sons' (private) school . Very mixed with all races. They do Shabat with jewish friends, been to Sikh temple while staying over with friends; and celebrated Eid with muslim friends. His friends were all at his confirmation blessing and I find parents to be very broad-minded.

There are also different income groups from those with jaw-dropping houses to those just getting along with the 10-year old banger (moi). The common thread is a focus on education.

And in my area of SW London, I see more segregation according to wealth.

Race and culture are fairly mixed in all local schools. I can see why MTS would smile at people in an area like this talking about state=diversity in terms of race.

But diversity is not just about race and culture. In my view, it is also about social, financial and skill differences. Different problems, different goals, different family histories. Of course that exists within any one social group - but to a far lesser extent.

I still like the diversity of our local state primary, compared to the local private alternatives (which I have visited).

White children did not go to my school because the site middle class parents bought all the expensive houses in catchment area of nice school or went private. My daughters school was in the middle of a housing estate which formed an effective ghetto for poorer black families.

I understand the difference between state coercion and choice. But enforced segregation was seen as a bad thing - presumably because it did not allow communities to mingle.

So why is segregation a choice any better? Surely the outcomes are the same?

And what makes you think it an informed or sensible choice when it is something imposed on a five year old child in reception class and then throughout their school career?

And MTS, saying religious African children aren't allowed to play with my child after school for an hour or so because she doesn't share their religion is a pretty clear example of the bigotry and suspicion I abhor and which I don't think any of us should encourage or condone. What on earth did they think my five year old could do to spiritually corrupt their five year old? Or was it because I was immoral single mother?

Just because people chose to be bigoted and racist, doesn't make it right.

O and by the way - I didn't have a choice about sending my child to this school. I couldn't afford to buy in catchment area for nice schools and I couldn't afford to go private. I can only even think of affording it now because of big critical illness payout - so frankly I would rather not be in the position of having a 'choice' this way.

I thought the school was good - caring, supportive teachers. But I don't like segregation and I have yet to heat any examples of the benefits it brings - to either individuals or society at large.

I don't think we need to worry too much. Immigrants work hard and move up and pay fees and buy bigger houses. It is definitely not the case in many parts of London that the rich are white, no way. You could chart the progression of groups over decades moving from one part of London out to others where houses cost more and there is no reason that should not happen also for newer immigrants too. Just because you're from Africa doesn't have to mean you cannot get the same A levels at UK school as Chinese and Indian children.

"Back to the question of parents' aspirations, a friend who has been VERY stressed about putting her dcs through the 7+ and 11+ respectively has told me, now they've been semi-successful (one achieved the second choice), she's told them she'll never forgive them if they don't pay her back by going into a profession. She says if they "betray" her by pursuing arty careers she'll die."
I think this expectation thing is very interesting. Someone recently showed a clip from some TV programme where an Etonian was talking about his parent expectations. It was wasn't just academic expectation but also the expectation that at Eton there were so many opportunities outside of academia and that he had to make the best of what was on offer otherwise he was letting his parents down.

Xenia its nothing to do with race its about segregation. By religion by class or access. Yes people choose it but doed that make it acceptable suddenly? The State by doing nothing to rectify it, is colluding in the very thing we fought against not too many years ago.

Rabbit sorry but yours is the most feeble excuse I have heard in a long time.

Spero - I am also saying the exclusion you see from 'African' parents is one of class and not race. There is not a homogeneity amongst black people just because of race. The African parents I know are very open to play dates and are active in school.