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Original poster

my son is being punished for our religious stance

302 replies

LiloLils · 09/04/2013 03:43

...this is a bold statement but its how I feel.

There isn't any point to my post but the subject is keeping me awake so thought it might help to write it down on a public forum and see if I'm not the only one who is saddened by this.

Basically my DH and I are non religious. I was brought up catholic and he was brought up church of England but somewhere along the line we both lost our faith and sided with reason. Myself particularly...I have a bit of a problem with organised religion. there are personal reasons for this.

Long story short. If we stick to our guns and don't get our boy christened into either Catholicism or church of England, he is going to have to attend the worst school in the borough.

It just really angers me. Why in this day and age do we have to jump through hoops, lie about our beliefs, and subject our children to learning fairy tales as fact, in order to get them into a "good" school?

I have never been so torn about a decision in my life. I'm being pressured by family and friends to get him christened just to get him into a good school. They make me feel guilty by saying things like "do it for your child. I'd do anything for my child...wouldn't you?" It just feels all wrong.

OP posts:
Copthallresident · 11/04/2013 11:11

mrz That is not necessarily true. Some VA schools are , like the Catholic one just established in Richmond, on Council land leased from the Council on a peppercorn rent. The Schools are required to contribute 10% of capital costs but often suggest that parents contribute to a maintenance fund . It is estimated the Catholic church contributes 0.7% of capital costs , £25 per child per year. All the rest is paid by the taxpayer. www.richmondinclusiveschools.org.uk/answers/one-faq?faq_id=9976042#q_9999800

Faith schools are not just a historic phenomenan, the VA route is one that Councils can link up with diocese to exploit to create new schools. You have Councils who have a strategy that is underpinned by the assumption that new schools should not be faith schools with religious criteria for admissions because they do not meet the social need, because they discriminate against the most vulnerable families who will not have the time and resources to meet the criteria. On the other hand you have Councils like Richmond who with a leadership working with the diocese have prioritised a Catholic School over the provision of much needed community places. Next year the only way that Richmond will have sufficient school places is if the parents who responded to the Councils neglect of the need for community place by putting together a Free School proposal are successful, yet the Council gave the best site for that school away to the Catholic Church.

Copthallresident · 11/04/2013 11:13

Sorry on capital cost, all the rest I'd paid for by taxpayer 90% and parents 9.3%

mrz · 11/04/2013 11:23

The VA route was established because the churches already had established schools which the state wanted to take over and it was a compromise which allowed the church a degree of control.

Copthallresident · 11/04/2013 11:26

OP One thing I would observe is that as far as religious schools are concerned the old saying that you can lead a horse to water etc is very true. You are evidence of that. At Oratory , a Catholic School so selective it has flower arranging in the criteria www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/9974530/Flower-arranging-and-Bible-reading-should-give-parents-priority-for-faith-school-places.html there have been two issues recently that would be of concern to parents, the handing out of anti abortion leaflets by some sixth formers and the refusal to allow a choir to visit because of some implications of homosexuality (sorry can't remember why exactly) on both issues DDs friends there had the same response as you would expect of most of their generation. The girls who gave out the leaflets were dismissed as zealots and there was disgust at the attitude to homosexuality, albeit in a shrugged but what can you do about the outdated attitudes , rather than campaigning way. At another Catholic private school I know of , the head boy was gay, unbeknownst to Head , and his leaving speech was peppered with 'in' references that were not understood by the Head but were by the pupils to their amusement, and actually most of the parents .

Copthallresident · 11/04/2013 11:31

mrz but the point I am making is that it is not just a historic phenomenon, the D of E have made it clear it has been left open for the churches to establish new exclusive schools. Of course once established they can then take on academy status and receive full funding from Central government whilst retaining exclusive admissions.

mrz · 11/04/2013 11:38

I am not suggesting that it is a historical phenomenon

Original poster
LiloLils · 12/04/2013 00:51

I was speaking to my mum briefly about it this evening. I said a lot of things can change in 4 years. To which she retorted "well as long as he doesn't end up in that shit school. It's been shit for 30 years".

Sigh.

OP posts:
deleted203 · 12/04/2013 01:10

I do honestly struggle to understand why anyone with an active dislike of organised religion, who has no faith, would want to send their child to a Catholic school, TBH.

I'm not a Catholic, and therefore wouldn't particularly want my DCs to go to a school that is run along these lines. I don't want my children being taught that birth control is not allowed or that abortion and homosexuality are grave sins. Similarly I don't want my DCs in a Muslim school that is teaching them that Islam is the one true religion.

Whilst understanding that people will say, 'Oh, but it's the only good school in the area,' I still find it slightly bizarre that they would then be offended that their own offspring would be rejected on religious grounds. Presumably the practising Catholics in the area want their own children educated in this school, surrounded by others who share their faith?

Original poster
LiloLils · 12/04/2013 01:21

The question that keeps wandering into my mind is this:

what is more important: my set of beliefs, or ensuring my son has the best start in life I can give him.

I can't seem to get this thought out of my mind, even though I have realistically made my decision. I can't help but think I'm making a mistake and I'll regret not "playing the system"

OP posts:
Original poster
LiloLils · 12/04/2013 01:26

And of course I'm offended that my son is being discriminated against purely because of what his parents believe. It's not his fault for crying out loud.

OP posts:
deleted203 · 12/04/2013 01:37

But do you honestly believe that sending your child to a school that preaches a faith you don't believe in is giving him the best start in life? I don't want my children being educated by people who may teach them beliefs I disagree with.

Original poster
LiloLils · 12/04/2013 01:47

That is what I'm agonising over. I don't want my son to be taught these things as true. Similarly, I don't want my son to attend the crap school. I have to decide what is more important.

I had catholic education, and I was able to make up my own mind about it. So it only stands to reason that he can too. I never took the religious aspect seriously (after I came to the conclusion I didn't believe) and I even got myself confirmed as a teenager so I could attend the better college. So I'm already guilty of doing this in a way. As a teenager though, I didn't care. I just wanted to get into the better college.

OP posts:
Original poster
LiloLils · 12/04/2013 01:50

That is what I'm agonising over. I don't want my son to be taught these things as true. Similarly, I don't want my son to attend the crap school. I have to decide what is more important.

I had catholic education, and I was able to make up my own mind about it. So it only stands to reason that he can too. I never took the religious aspect seriously (after I came to the conclusion I didn't believe) and I even got myself confirmed as a teenager so I could attend the better college. So I'm already guilty of doing this in a way. As a teenager though, I didn't care. I just wanted to get into the better college.

OP posts:
CheerfulYank · 12/04/2013 02:23

I am religious, and I think it sucks that you're in this position.

Here in the States you have to pay through the nose if you want your DC in a religious school. Our state funded schools are secular. I think it's how it should be. DS will be taught about our beliefs at home and church, not school.

Original poster
LiloLils · 12/04/2013 02:37

That's exactly as it should be, cheerful.

Just as I should be asleep. My boy wakes in approx 3 hours. This issue just will not leave my already frazzled brain. It makes me so angry!!!!!!!!!!!!

OP posts:
exoticfruits · 12/04/2013 06:58

I would have faith in your DS - you were taught that things were true and yet made up your own mind- I would assume that he would do the same.
I know quite a lot of people who were brought up as Catholics - they are a smallish sample but not one of them is a Catholic now - they include one who was told by a nun that she would never do well in exams if she didn't attend Sunday Mass. ( she didn't and got to Oxford!)
Why not just send him to the best school and have discussions at hime about the religious side?
I don't think that children are the empty vacuums that people assume- they think deeply and make up their own minds. Bring them up to question everything- including you.

CecilyP · 12/04/2013 17:03

I was speaking to my mum briefly about it this evening. I said a lot of things can change in 4 years. To which she retorted "well as long as he doesn't end up in that shit school. It's been shit for 30 years".

That is such a nasty thing to say. Even if the school does not change one bit in 4 years, it will still be an OK school with teachers doing their utmost with perhaps a challenging catchment. Can I ask if the RC school has had its good reputation for 30 years?

While, I daresay, people of all social classes choose to go to church, it would only be a certain demographic who would attend church when they normally wouldn't be inclined to, just to get their child into a particular school. Any school that selects in this way will have automatic parental support and would not have to work so hard to do well and impress Ofsted. You are the sort of parent who is likely to give that support, so your DS is likely to do fine wherever he goes.

Talkinpeace · 13/04/2013 19:48

I am an atheist
as are my children
I was a school governor at their CofE primary school

I am genuinely bemused why people worry about church stuff for "Controlled" schools
they are STATE schools
the church pays nothing
it has no control over admissions
what is all this guff about christenings?
LEA schools follow the Admissions code.
"Aided" schools have a small part of their capital budget from the church but the VAST VAST bulk comes straight from the dfe

Talkinpeace · 13/04/2013 19:53

PS
Here is the standard budget of a CofE "Aided" School - one with max church influence
www.hants.gov.uk/education/schools/budgetshares/files/2013/0/3330.pdf
no diocese input shown there .....

BranchingOut · 14/04/2013 09:03

The stuff about christening is not guff, it does appear on admissions criteria for some faith schools, mostly RC.

MothershipG · 14/04/2013 09:11

Talkin there are 2 types of church school, voluntary aided and voluntary controlled, one has no control over admissions the other does.

And it's not just RC schools that set this sort of criteria, there is a CofE high school near me that has additional criteria around church involvement for which you get extra points. I had the form, I spoke to the admissions person, they are over subscribed so these are the criteria they apply.

seeker · 14/04/2013 09:13

I wish the christening thing was "guff" but it isn't. I've known people frantically hunting for baptismal certificates, writing off to long closed churches asking them to hunt for records, and one even wondering whether the inscribed baptismal candle she found in her loft would do......

exoticfruits · 14/04/2013 10:46

When my DS went to a church school, christening and church attendance was never asked about. It was the village school-we lived in the village.

Talkinpeace · 14/04/2013 13:10

Roman Catholic schools most certainly have religious requirements.
I'd be interested to know how a CofE school got church attendance through the Admissions code.

I know the difference between Aided and Controlled : my kids were at a Controlled. But if you look at the budget linked above, even aideds are just state schools despite what they might want to tell people.

mrz · 14/04/2013 13:19

My colleagues two children attend a Catholic School even though the family aren't Catholic (non religious) neither child has been baptised and the family don't attend any church.