my son is being punished for our religious stance

[LiloLils]

...this is a bold statement but its how I feel.

There isn't any point to my post but the subject is keeping me awake so thought it might help to write it down on a public forum and see if I'm not the only one who is saddened by this.

Basically my DH and I are non religious. I was brought up catholic and he was brought up church of England but somewhere along the line we both lost our faith and sided with reason. Myself particularly...I have a bit of a problem with organised religion. there are personal reasons for this.

Long story short. If we stick to our guns and don't get our boy christened into either Catholicism or church of England, he is going to have to attend the worst school in the borough.

It just really angers me. Why in this day and age do we have to jump through hoops, lie about our beliefs, and subject our children to learning fairy tales as fact, in order to get them into a "good" school?

I have never been so torn about a decision in my life. I'm being pressured by family and friends to get him christened just to get him into a good school. They make me feel guilty by saying things like "do it for your child. I'd do anything for my child...wouldn't you?" It just feels all wrong.

Poor Lilo... you appear awfully stressed. Don't worry too much. I reckon it will all turn out fine.

If it is of any comfort:

I just looked up my son's (secondary) school's OFSTED reports.
In 2006, which was shortly before my son went there, they one 2 (good) many many grades 3 (satisfactory) for everything and even a couple of 4s (unsatisfactory)!
Plus generally a bad reputation.

Still placed my son there, and as I said, it all went smoothly for him. We never noticed any problems, he is really happy, enjoyed his lessons, and his grades are excellent. The school was not happy with their report, and they worked hard to improve.

In 2011 the school had another inspection, and this time they scored 2 (good) on everything and even a few 1s (outstanding).

Sooo.. your local 'bad' school could be a 'good' school too by the time your little one is old enough. And if not, home educating is an option too, isn't it? I think the home-ed community in London is pretty lively anyway.

Don't be ridiculous, you are not being "punished".
If you are not Catholic or C of E, you cannot attend a Catholic or C of E school, in the same way as if you had a broken leg, the Marsden Hospital would quite rightly refuse to treat you.
If the faith schools were not performing better than your allocated one; you wouldn't give a shiny shite that you'd been excluded.

I just wanted to add to the 'sitting at the church' thingy. Since having my DC and starting taking them to church I literally just sit through the mass. I don't hear a thing - DC keep me well occupied with their fidgeting during the almost 2 hour long mass. It is hard work to even be there so I stopped listening to the mass itself.

My DH is anglican and I must admit that I almost converted, their mass and community is so much nicer and more relaxed. The whole school thing made me to revive as a catholic churchgoer.

Sometimes I regret that chose this oustanding RC school instead a good community school, but I regret more by not baptising DS early as it does ruin our chances for the best secondary schools in our area.

Its a farce. Round my way, loads of people baptise their child just to get them in to a faith school. I'd hazard a guess that more than half the supposed Catholics who send their children to our local, outstanding RC schools only found Catholicism around the time they started thinking about school applications. It just doesnt make sense.

Floggingmolly the hospital analogy doesn't work. Imagine if the Marsden said "Sorry, we're not going to treat your lymphoma because you're Jewish"

Flogging Molly What a ridiculous analogy, unless being a particular religion is akin to having your cells run mutant, and any other form of schooling would be life threatening and lead to physical pain. I suppose you also believe that selection on religious grounds is as justified as a special school catering for ASD or Dyslexia refusing admission to children without those disabilities? No hospital is going to refuse you because of your religion, imagine the outcry if they did?

I totally agree that this issue of hypocrisy would not arise if all schools were good but they are not and religious selection results not just hypocrisy but social and ethnic discrimination. It also leads to division within communities and the breaking up of existing communities. I had to move because fifteen years ago in our area of London, already there were not enough school places. The result was leaving a community that had grown up in anti natal and nursery, we are all now spread to the winds having moved, gone private, or had faith school choices either by dint of being genuinely devout or strategic manoeuvring to get through the hoops. At least distance criteria allow schools to cater for a community.

It is not even popular amongst some devout priests and members of the congregations since suddenly their churches are overrun with these strategic Christians who might arrange the flowers for a few years but do nothing to contribute to the long term mission of their church and lead to the exclusion from the schools of those children most deserving of their care.

And it is just plain unfair to discriminate against a child on the basis of their parents religion.

"seeker - no again not quite the same. A certain religion is not required for Op's school. If OP choses to sit in a church every Sunday she'd have certain school options that she doesn't have by not sitting in church.
She doesn't have to be anything. She just has to go to a certain place at a set time each week."

I think this is taking pragmatism further than I can imagine. So you sit in church- you don't take part in the service, you don't say anything, you don't stand or kneel or sing or do anything that might suggest you are participating............Does the Vicar not have to write a supporting letter? I thought that was usual for over subscribed church schools.

"Often there is an attendance book that you sign each week to 'prove' you've been." really

Hi op,

Thought I'd add my opinion into the mix.

I find out my primary school allocation this time next week. I live in central London in social housing and was lucky enough to move from one end of the borough with zero choice and satisfactory schools or c of e/catholic schools, to the other end of the borough which had amazing choices of state and faith schools.

I could have chosen for my dd to go to the Jewish school in my area, but, feeling the way I do about organised religion, I decided it would be wholly hypocritical of me to force faith on my daughter when I clearly don't believe that's right (Much to the dismay of my family). The sect of the Jewish faith that would be taught in that school would be completely different to what I was taught too, so that has an opinion on me too.

I have chosen 4 schools out of a possible 6 and the main worry for me now is how I'm going to juggle childcare/work/me time and not on the schools, because as previous posters have said, once I started doing the tours I relied on gut instinct rather than ofsted reports and sat results.

A lot can change in 4 years, don't panic too much, you have time for all other sorts if worries first

I don't think it's something that happens in this area

Your DS is not being punished, OP, any more than any other child of non-churchgoing parents is being punished. And many of the others who will be excluded from the faith schools have parents who at least have sufficient Christian belief not to dismiss Christinity as 'fairy tales'.

I think from your later posts you have already decided against the Catholic school, so the rush to get your child christened is averted, unless you change your mind by the time your DS is going to secondary. So that leaves the C of E school or the other school. As the C of E school only has a PAN of 30, not many children will get in - so are all the other children seriously being punished? I am sure it is a lovely little school, but do you live close enough for a place even if you do decide to attend church? Don't forget a fair few of those 30 places will go to sibblings. And of the 5 places reserved for 'others', what do you have to do to be one of the others? Is it distance and do you, in fact, live close enough.

And do you really only have the choice of 3 schools? Are there any other schools a little further away where you might at least have a chance of a place?

Just quickly...I know I've used dramatic wording, but the fact is my son is unable to attend the best school in the borough just because of our beliefs. And therefore he is being denied the best possible start in life. In my mind, my son is being punished for my beliefs (or non belief)

Flogging molly all of the school are "faith" schools where i live...ALL of them. I would need to travel for 20mins to get a community school ( which i would never get into based on distance)

All of the schools are funded by the council tax....ALL of them.

Lilo.

So are many other parents unable to attend the school if they don't fit the religious aspect of the school.
You sound very entitled tbh. Unless we are missing something and you are somehow more entitled to a place than others practising the religion.

I don't think lilo is entitled. She's just faced with a choice - go against her belief and baptist her LO. Or try the London school lottery. She felt torn because she felt it's wrong to pretend to be an anglican or a catholic. Plenty of parents aren't.

It's like Khaleese says. In some areas, all the schools around them are faith schools. They have no choice but join the queue of kids who can't find a school place. That's what is wrong.

It is utterly ridiculous that anyone should be excluded from a state school on grounds of religion.

Imagine if the same applied to hospitals, or dialling 999, or streetlights or bin collection or any other tax funded service!

So I suppose I must conclude that I shouldn't get my son baptised, I couldn't bear the hypocrisy. And just hope that things change in 4 years. Perhaps a new school will open, or the crap school will get better.

In my heart I doubt things will change, and so this is where I'm torn. I'm terrified I'll look back and regret not just swallowing my pride and doing the whole religious thing as so many of my friends and family are doing.

I'm really sickened by the whole sorry state of affairs. It is all so unfair. It makes my contempt for organised religion ever stronger. So I guess my answer lies here. I cannot imagine gritting my teeth at every mass. I can't imagine being anything other than dismayed at my child being taught the bible as truth. I can't imagine holding my tongue when asked about the subject.

So there it is. I'll not get my boy christened. If he ends up going to a poor school we will just have to ensure he gets extra education at home.

My family will not be best pleased (Irish Catholic) but I have to stick to what I believe...just as they do.

It still stresses me out thinking of the blatant discrimination but that is the system I guess. Not much can be done about it.

lilo it's good you have made your choice, and hopefully peace. As you say, if you can't bring yourself to go to church every week, then you won't be looking back at this in 4 years with regrets.

When I think of incredibly successful people throughout history, none come to mind who went to privileged schools. In fact, my biggest heroes, who are some of the most respected people in history, all went to schools that were considered poor in their childhoods.

This massive concern over our children going to the best possible schools is way overblown (at least in the early years) and, in my view, mostly pointless. It only matters in our own minds and the argument is only valid if built upon false premises, so in the end it is still wrong.

Children are mostly advantaged or disadvantaged because of their families--primarily their parents. If you want your child to read well by a certain age there is no factor anywhere near as influential in that as your involvement, as a parent, in seeing to it that your child will read well. The primary responsibility for our children, their education or anything else, rests upon us as parents and not upon the services available to help us, such as schools.

If you have moral concerns with playing religious when you are not, I say do not send your child to those schools. Send the child to the school you have no moral objection to and give your child the parental attention that makes the difference. In turn you will give the school a child they can lift up as a shining example of what great people can come from their school. Do not be a victim, be a hero.