What's the educational argument for so many holidays?

[TinTinsSexySister]

Just that really.

Are there any educational benefits to frequent school holidays or are they just an historical hangover? Educationally speaking, would we be worse or better off adopting the US system?

I do know some young teachers who have spent some of their holiday working on play schemes but they have had a mix if DCs from different schools and very few, if any, from their own. They earn some money but they do it because it is fun for them- e.g they have a great social life with the other leaders. They have a more relaxed relationship with the DCs - e.g. They are Emma and not Miss Smith. They only do it when young and single - if they have their own DCs they don't.

lesteatgrandma - I've just seen fivecandles posts on other threads before thats all.

exotocfruits - my children have been to various holiday clubs in private schools over the years. All of these clubs are open to all children. The ones that are run directly by the schools (as opposed to the commercial ones that just rent a private school facilities) usually just levy a charge to cover the cost of staff (all are teachers who get paid extra on top of normal salary) and materials.

They also often offer blocks of places to local authority which the local authority then fund for children who they select according to need. Those places are virtually free.

My childrens swimming pool and sports centre is open every night for a small fee to cover wear and tear to a lot of outside clubs and activities.

Private schools usually dont have enough funds to cover staff costs. That has to come from fees. The facilities though are often rented out for nominal sums because the facilities are what is in the charitable trust. The teaching though is paid for on a commercial but not for profit basis and is run by a company that is not part of the charity.

Mosty private schools have in recent years put in place holiday clubs again in responseto demand from working parents.They started to be prevalent in the South East about 10 years ago and I have noticed they have spread all over the country as more and more families have two professional full time working parents. Its the same pressure as the demand for wrap around care.

What are all these posts about teachers not being paid for the holidays? Teachers in permanent posts (rather than supply) are paid an annual salary (collectively agreed). They receive monthly salary payments 12 months a year. And yes, they are required to work a set number of hours, which they do in term times. That doesn't mean that the annual salary is not based on the full year. If the rate was seen as being pro rata term time only, then what is already a decent rate of pay (similar to lawyers (other than high flying commercial ones), but with far more holiday and better pension), would be a very good rate of pay, higher than many other professionals.
There is an oversupply of qualified teachers in many parts of the country. Teachers who say that no-one would do the job if they had similar length holidays to everyone else are kidding themselves. They are also kidding themselves if they think that in this economic climate it would be easy for most of them to find alternative work outside of teaching.

Teachers are paid for 195 days work Dromedary

Work/life balance
63.4 Governing Bodies and head teachers, in carrying out their duties, must have regard to the need for the head teacher and teachers at the school being able to achieve a satisfactory balance between the time required to discharge their professional duties including in particular, in the case of teachers to whom paragraphs 62.2 to 62.11 apply, their duties under paragraph 62.6 and the time required t0 pursue their personal interests outside work. In having regard to this, Governing Bodies and head teachers should ensure that they adhere to the working limits set out in the Working Time Regulations(88).

Teachers are not paid for the holidays. There are many like me who don't have contracts. We get no pay in the holidays and we get a higher rate of pay for the work that we do.

I googled and came up with the following without even getting down the first page.

'The number of teachers who quit their jobs in English state schools rose by almost a fifth in one year, official figures suggest

Some 47,700 teachers left their jobs in the year 2010-11, up from 40,070 in 2009-10, according to Schools Minister David Laws

The number of teachers leaving the profession before reaching retirement age has hit a record high, with Government figures showing that thousands of staff have opted to leave teaching early.

74% of ATL members consider early retirement

The figures have come weeks after NASUWT revealed that nearly half of its 230,000 members have considered quitting in the last year. More than a third said that they did not believe they were respected as professionals and half said their job satisfaction had declined in the last year.

The government faces a damaging crisis of morale among teachers, according to a survey which shows the proportion of people in the profession describing their mood as positive has almost halved since April.

In a particular worry for the Department for Education there is deep scepticism towards government policies even in academies and free schools, with only 13% of teachers in those institutions, seen by ministers as the template for the sector's future, believing ministers are taking education in the right direction.

Why a super star teacher is considering leaving TES

Good teachers leaving the profession the Educator.

You can believe that teacher morale is in a healthy state if you wish. I am very pleased that my DCs are through the system.
Of course there is no shortage-graduates can't get jobs. My DS wants a job in IT -every one he applies to has over 100 applicants. A new Costa coffee advertised 8 jobs and got 1700 applications-many of them graduates.
It is a tempting start-It doesn't mean they will stay.
Believe you me-if you start taking away the holidays you won't have seen anything yet!

Small village primary schools can't get Heads-they generally have to re advertise-people do not want the workload.
It is all terribly, terribly sad-they all like working with the children. You are sticking your head in the sand if you think it is a healthy attitude to overwork and under value teachers.

There is an oversupply of qualified teachers in many parts of the country.

There is also a serious retention issue already, with 50% leaving within 5 years.

What I am describing is exactly what we did for preschool staff contracts. Even the cleaner was on that kind of contract (she had holiday pay). I had no idea it was progressive practice (??). I am shocked that anyone can work 40 weeks/yr and not be entitled to holiday pay. Only if it was supply work/SE. What you all are describing cannot be legal, imo. Next you'll be telling me that teachers, no matter how many years in service, don't have redundancy or unfair dismissal rights, either.

If what you are saying were true then teachers would be entitled to claim JSA in the holidays, too.

I have a feeling that the terms of the contract are that the annual salary is X for 39 weeks of contact time and up to staff how they manage the planning time whether that's in the 39 weeks or in the holidays. But holiday is still an intrinsic part of it.

CAB advice.

May I suggest that any teacher who believes they are not given any holiday pay as part of their contract takes it up with their union?

May I suggest you dig a bit more? Everything I have seen confirms that a teacher's contract is unique - we are paid for those days when we have to be available for work.

It is illegal to ask teachers to work any other days outside the 195 specified days, and we are not paid for them.

Sorry if that offends you - it's a fact.

I don't know how many times you have to say that teachers are not paid for holidays for people to understand it! If the government want to take away holiday then they have to find extra money-they can't afford it.

May I suggest that any teacher who believes they are not given any holiday pay as part of their contract takes it up with their union?

Teachers understand it perfectly-it is everyone else who has the problem!
As a supply teacher I couldn't earn a penny in August. My salary was divided in a different way to reflect this.

as it was the unions who agreed to this on behalf of their membership I think that would be a pointless exercise

As has been mentioned on this thread, there is a statutory right to 28 days' holiday, which can include bank holidays. Where employees work term time only (whether as teachers or not) then they are deemed to take their holiday entitlement in the school holidays. They are paid for those weeks (they have to be by law). Believe me, the very powerful and experienced teachers unions would not have missed a basic issue such as teachers not being paid statutory minimum holiday!
Teachers are paid what is a normal kind of salary for many other graduate level jobs, on an annual basis (in other words those other jobs pay a similar amount but with far fewer working hours, and also worse pension).
As I understand it the Government will be moving to a lower annual salary for teachers who work in areas where the local rates of pay are lower. So many teachers will be paid less in future. I am not giving a view on this, but I think that that is what is due to happen.

Sorry - I meant that others work longer hours, not fewer, as they have far less time off work.

That's supply teaching, though, Exotic. A kind of SE.

I'm not offended, just shocked.

It seems to me that the wording of the contract implies "available" for so many hours. It must be a legal loophole like zero hours contracts, to not describe holiday entitlement explicitly.

Teachers pay and conditions are found in "The Burgundy Book" It represents the national agreement between the six teacher associations and the local authorities.

I had a position on the pay scale. I worked for the LA and not an agency.it was divided differently according to whether I was supply rate or on a contract. I got more if it was supply - the downside was that Aug was always a month without pay, December, April etc had less potential for earning. This is why on a contract I got less but it was the same every month. The holidays are not paid.

I'm a hlta these days. And yes my salary is pro rata to 39 weeks a year, and only for so many hours a week. I don't get paid for any break nor any holidays. My salary is however paid over 12 months.

People simply don't realise that teachers' pay is based on a 195-day year and that they are not paid for the holidays. In fact - and I know how daft this is going to sound - a lot of teachers don't realise it themselves!

Yes, it's divided up into 12 instalments so it gives the impression of being an all-year-round salary. But (for example) if a builder invoices me for a day's work and I pay him it in 4 equal instalments over 4 weeks, that doesn't mean I've paid him for 4 weeks' work.

948 posts, and people still don't get it!

I've had a look at the national pay scales (and teachers can get more for extra responsibilities). That rate of pay (plus pension) for a 195 day year is very very good. I'm sure that some teachers take on extra work in the holidays, eg exam marking or teaching English to foreigners. It's a great deal, especially for those in areas where pay in the private sector is low. If you think you can do better moving into the private sector then good luck to you.

Are we saying it isn't a good deal, I would be rather stupid or a martyr to take on a job that I did not think was a good deal, when I have qualification spurting out of every orifice and a strong track record in both sectors.

I do think there is a tacit acknowledgment that to do the job in those 195 days as I almost do is quite a challenge.