What's the educational argument for so many holidays?

[TinTinsSexySister]

Just that really.

Are there any educational benefits to frequent school holidays or are they just an historical hangover? Educationally speaking, would we be worse or better off adopting the US system?

Sorry 8am!

"Ultimately teachers may need to make sacrificies for the good of the children they teach and the whole of society and economy"

This makes me want to vomit.

I already make plenty of sacrifices thank you. Ask my DH and my children. I chose to teach, and one of the things I like about my job is the ability to organise my own working day. I felt like this before I had children as well as since.

Get down from your high horse, Five. You are coming across as hideously smug.

chibi, my point is that, again, since taxpayers fund all doctors (GPs and surgeons) it seems reasonable to expect them to be able to see us when we need them regardless of whether that is on a Monday morning or a Friday evening or a Sunday afternoon.

Like teachers, why are doctors allowed to work hours to suit themselves rather than hours to suit the public good (who are footing the bill for them).

assuming that teachers will do this extra work for free, is it your expectation that support staff- dinner ladies, receptionists, LSAs caretakers will work another 6 weeks for free as well?

they may prove immune to bleatings about how they ought to do it for the kids, sand to help out parents, particularly because they aren't well paid to begin with

I'm not sure why it's smug to suggest things need to change. I'm also not sure why you feel it necessary to make personal attacks. It doesn't do your position any favours.

Dinner ladies etc get paid per hour. They work more hours if they want to or someone else does and they get paid more hours. Don't see a problem there.

Lots of caretakers work all year around anyway.

I don't have a position.

You're acting as if school holidays are a new thing, forced upon the country by selfish teachers who choose their own hours.

I find it harder and harder to believe that you're actually a teacher yourself - your attitude is utterly bizarre.

You're just ranting now Evil and launching personal attacks rather than actually making points that make sense.

Oh, and your "the state pays for 3 year olds" argument is deeply flawed. The state pays for precious few hours per week in from the school term after the child turns 3, does it not? Hardly enough for someone to start working - speaking from experience, the state hours were welcome, but I was already paying for nursery for my children so that I could work part time. I could not have done any kind of job on the state allowance alone.

I'm not sure you're willing to take notice of anyone's point of view anyway, so why would it matter?

What attitude is 'bizarre'. The idea that the school year should be restructured to suit the children they're designed for and their parents and society and the economy as a whole rather than around harvests and pagan festivals. Oh, yes, truly bizarre!!

The state pays for hours of childcare for 3 year olds at a cost of millions because it sees this as an investment. I'm sorry you don't feel you benefited from this Evil. I certainly did as did and do many other parents.

Are only rich people or teachers allowed to have children in your world?

Someone has to pay-the tax payer. You can't have cheap, good quality childcare. I am all for opening up schools in the summer holidays and employing play leaders but they have to be paid. I can't see it coming from taxes. Means testing it brings in a whole army of bureaucracy that needs paying.
Everything boils down to money. I can't see where it comes from. It appears that teachers make the huge personal sacrifice from a social conscience. I can't see why refusing to take it on gets the 'I'm all right Jack response'. You try telling the average parent that they will have to be on a rota on their time off and it it will open a can of worms! Apparently it is only teachers who should.......... Why can't lawyers have a social conscience and say 'I am owed a week's leave-I will do team games/ drama/whatever for a week.

It's slightly nuts IMHO to suggest that anyone do more work for no further reward (Though I know plenty of proposals that suggest such things)

But simple laws of economics suggest you pay the rate for the job required and find the right person to fill that role etc.

most other support staff aren't paid by hour.

shall they work an extra 7 weeks for free too?

i wonder which expletives someone earning £15k might use at this suggestion

What is bizarre is your assertion that since the majority of teachers work "extra" hours anyway, our contracts should be changed to reflect this, thus making the extra hours compulsory, but for no extra money. Why would you suggest that for a profession you are part of? I also find the "we have to make sacrifices for the good of the children we teach" attitude grating. It's a JOB. I love it and I'm very good at it. I go the extra mile (and further) in terms of time investment, emotional investment and financial investment, but do so because I want to, not because someone else insists that I must.

The whole thing about school holidays is old-hat. It's not going to change. No government will instigate your bonkers system of all-year-round schooling because the cost implications are phenomenal. External exams would have to be completely re-organised, curriculums would have to be written, and it would HAVE to be an all or nothing change. There is no way some schools could do it and others opt out, unless you're advocating getting rid of standardised testing at the end of KS4 and KS5. Your whole system is ill-thought through (you said yourself that you're not a policy maker and so you haven't bothered to think through the details) and yet it's those of us who disagree with you who are the problem.

i a child who benefits from the free nursery provision.

it is 15 hours a week and it is term time only

it is not an extra 7 weeks of 9-5 care totally free.

you might just find that it might cost a bit more to finance your scheme than it does to finance the 15 hours/week nursery provision. particularly as the cohort of children affected would be a lot bigger

(you aren't a maths teacher, i hope?)

chibi has it right, Five - I said the free hours were welcome but seriously, no one can do a job on the state allocation of nursery time alone. The comparison is hardly useful.

I find it harder and harder to believe that you're actually a teacher yourself - your attitude is utterly bizarre.

We only have her word. As a supply teacher and mother I know literally hundreds of teachers and they all say the same -although I admit to not knowing so many secondary teachers.

I am older-when mine were 3 yrs we didn't get any free nursery funding.

Sport, extra curriuclar activities, going to the cinema, going for walks, going swimming

All of these things require either lots of space (we have 20 classes with 550+ children with one field/playground/hall) or a high adult-child ratio!!

Five candles-you seem to be suggesting that because teachers do lots of unpaid work anyway, they might as well be in their classrooms looking after your kids so you don't have to be inconvenienced by finding childcare for them! I spend hours and hours outside of the hours 8.30-3.30 planning, assessing, marking, changing wall displays, washing dressing up clothes/aprons, washing toys, filling in referral forms, regrouping ability groups, changing books, setting and taking homework etc etc None of those things can be done if I am in charge of children at the same time! They all need to be done when it's just me, in my room (or at home after 8pm if it suits me). If I'm teaching (which is what you mean by 'let's recognise the hours you say you work' then none of those things can be done plus I'll be generating more of the same work. V few of those things can be done by anyone other than me either. Maybe washing the toys etc but nobody will want that job without being paid.

The fact that nobody on here (essentially a large proportion of working mums) seem to agree with your little plan says a lot.

If everyone had a social conscience then lawyers, shop workers, artists, farmers, IT workers etc etc could all give up some free time and do summer holiday activities-using the school buildings that are free. It would only cost the materials used. Strange that it is only teachers who are supposed to have a social conscience. It is in just as much interest for a doctor, dentist, actor etc to have our children and young people gainfully employed, taken care of and kept off the streets in the long summer holiday.

I ask again-why did you leave the state sector? I am also finding it very difficult to believe you are a qualified teacher.

I think that I might be more willing as a working parent (teachers are working parents) to do my bit, for the good of society, if a big rota went up on the wall for all the other working and SAHPs to fill in their names and the times they were doing -with NO excuses.
As the children start school you get the parents to fill in the form with their skills and interests and you say 'we will be operating extra weeks for child care and you will be on a rota'. If they have a toddler or baby they can take things home to do instead-cut out masks, wash painting aprons etc
Since there is no money for it it would be self help-and teachers would be part of it and not the only ones making a sacrifice.

After school clubs, homework clubs, activities etc are great for those that want them. Some are run by teachers, some by nvq trained childcare providers and lots are also a collaboration of paid workers and volunteers. Who are happy to do.it knowing they get holidays.

Amd they are great if you need them, but i have never signed mine up in reception yr as they are 4/5 yrs old and ime they needed to come home at 3:15 and chill.out!

As mine got older they have done styff like football, computer club, tennis, cookery clubs etc but generally only two extra activities a week. They simply dont need arranged activities after school five days a week.

Wrap around care is great if parents need it and there are childminder nannies or informal arrangements etc.

I agree there is a need for more goid quality and affordable childcare but it is NOT the place of schools to provide this. Its an extra that some schools are happy to do. But its not their job.

And the childcare needs to be tailored to the.children. If i needed childcare i would use a childminder for a more homelike experience. Clubs and larger scale facilities are fine for some children but not all.