What's the educational argument for so many holidays?

[TinTinsSexySister]

Just that really.

Are there any educational benefits to frequent school holidays or are they just an historical hangover? Educationally speaking, would we be worse or better off adopting the US system?

If there was better spacing of the holidays / one or two weeks fewer

Teachers would then have to be paid for those weeks, HappyOrchid.

And why should workign parents pay for teachers to have a longer holiday than any other job

1)They don't.
2)No one does - I am not paid for my holidays.
2)I am a working parent.

Once again, Evil, you seem to be struggling to envisage new ways of working.

I don't imagine that kids would be 'dumped' in school all year around. I don't see why the 6 week leisure/extra curriuclar/sport/catch up unit couldn't be made brilliant and enjoyable for kids incorporating some of the best practice from holiday clubs/summer camps with independent work/group projects etc.

Do you really think that it's better that disadvantaged kids should be left on the streets or in poor quality childcare? Or do you think that parents who can't afford to work and childcare should be made to stay at home with them?

Please don't make assumptions about me because I have worked in a private school system since September. I have worked in state schools for 15 years and worked wiht kids in some of the most deprived areas in the country.

These are the kids who would benefit most as would their parents.

Working parents don't pay for teachers to have longer holidays. That really is bullshit. As a teacher, I also pay taxes.

I think you live in a cosy middle-class bubble, Five.

There are also a significant number of parents who have no jobs and the lack of appropriate Childcare is not the reason why. There are parents who don't give a shit what their kids are up to, as long as they don't have to deal with it. I'm talking about the parents who don't bother with parents evenings, don't turn up to see their kids in the school play, keep them at home to look after the baby/ the puppy/ let the gas man in etc etc. These children would not benefit from being in school all year. They WOULD benefit from fun, interesting holidays activities, but that is up to the state to organise, not individual schools and certainly not teachers.

If you want to deal with these children from the age of 4, why not go the distance and remove them from their parents at birth? There are loads of toddlers being ignored by their parents too. Lots who don't go to playgroups/ toddler groups/ preschools. At what point should this full-on intervention begin?

'They would hate it and would resent chldren who DO get taken out for 6 weeks by parents who want to spend time with them.'

But a certain amount of kids would be taken out during each unit so nobody would notice.

You avoid the issue of large numbers of kids being 'dumped' on the streets for 6 weeks at the time all at once while middle class kids go off for educational holidays with mummy and daddy. Don't you think this causes resentment not to mention other problems?

The summer riots would never have happened under my system. You also wouldn't get the rise in accidents and injuries and petty crime that currently happens during the summer holidays.

'removing all parental responsibility'

Rubbish. You're not removing any parental responsibility.

Do you think that holiday clubs and playschemes and nurseries also do this?

Do you think that parents should not actually be allowed to work?

No. Some kids would NEVER get taken out because their parents would see school as full time free Childcare. Of course they would notice.

'Teachers would then have to be paid for those weeks, HappyOrchid.'

But teachers already do hundreds of hours of unpaid work.

Why not alter the school year to recognize that?

Or are you saying that teachers should simply work to rule and refuse to do any work that is not strictly part of their directed time?

Do you honestly think that everyone wants to work if only they could fine appropriate Childcare? Must be nice in your world.

'hat about people whose employers suddenly become aware of this ability to dictate to their staff when to put their children in for certain modules so they are available to cover busy periods at work or any other reason that suits neither the child nor the family?'

I don't get how that's going to be more of a problem than we've got now.

At the moment most working parents are forced to take time off during the summer holiday which creates massive problems for employers and employees. This way there would be genuine negotiation nad much more flexilbity.

It would particularly help the NHS which brings us back to doctors and the fact that death rates sore at weekends.

'but teachers already do unpaid work'

what's a few more six weeks then, eh?

'And what about children who do not cope with things being so ad hoc? Their best friend being taken out at different times of the year to them could be hugely disruptive to learning for some, not to mention children who have additional needs that mean a shifting classroom environment all year is intolerable?

And are you seriously proposing just 6 weeks of school holidays in total per year or have I misread that?'

I can't help thinking that you're just looking for problems for the sake of it. Your first point does seeem really quite odd.

Do you not know that under the system at the moment kids are taken out at all sorts of times because of the cost of holidays and because of family events etc which cannot be organised according to the harvest calendar.

I am talking about each child opting for a 6 week holiday and not dropping in and out ad hoc so in fact this would be much less disruptive.

IT would also mean that anyone who missed a unit because of illness etc could repeat that unit unlike the current system.

No obviously you'd get the usual state holidays as well.

The classroom environment would not shift. You would get a group of kids doing one unit for 6 weeks and then another group doing another.

Just like kids opt for different subjects or are placed in different sets now.

Strangely kids seem to cope with this. One set might opt for georgraphy and another history and then they are with some of hte same kids for maths and a different set for French wehre they might be set.

How odd that you should think this is a problem.

Feenie, our salaries are funded by the taxpayer. In my view taxpayers would be justified in resenting the fact that their taxes pay for us to have 13 week holidays a year especially when that means they have to fork out for additional childcare.

You will find that most salaries are paid in monthly increments and that most employees do not get paid for the days they don't work.

tiggy, parents ARE entitled to take unpaid leave.

However, most parents would struggle to take 13 weeks unpaid leave each year and still pay their bills.

Teachers are lucky in that their salary is very good considering the 13 weeks holiday.

'I think you live in a cosy middle-class bubble, Five. '

I have worked in some of the most deprived state schools in the country for 15 years.

I am arguing particularly with disadvantaged kids in mind and their parents.

Really? So in these deprived schools, you never came across parents who ignore their kids the majority of the time, think that school should be doing the child rearing and had no intention of getting a job?

'There are parents who don't give a shit what their kids are up to, as long as they don't have to deal with it.'

And this is one way in which those kids could be properly cared for.

Why the hell not?

If we abdicate responsibility as a society for these kids they will end up costing us more in all sorts of ways in the long run.

"The summer riots would never have happened under my system".

Why, five? 75% of the rioters were adults

apparently most workers are paid for their holidays here

it is disingenuous to pretend that no one gets paid for holidays and then use this as an argument

So Five, why not just remove these kids at birth? Pop them in state-run homes. That would sort it, wouldn't it.

'Do you honestly think that everyone wants to work if only they could fine appropriate Childcare? '

That is not what I have ever said. I have said there are a significant number of parents who cannot work because the cost of childcare makes it not financially worth their while.

You are deliberately misinterpreting me. Why?